03-11-2004, 06:37 PM | #21 |
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Isn't the sword Anglachel/Gurthang amazing? Folks, this sword speaks! That Dark Elf Eöl could do a trick or two. But where does it say that he made it from a meteor?
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03-11-2004, 07:07 PM | #22 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
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03-12-2004, 02:00 AM | #23 |
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Thanks Val. Then my next question is: Where did CRT get that detail from?
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03-12-2004, 02:32 AM | #24 |
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Sorry for being ignorant, but who is CRT? Is it Christopher Tolkien? If so, I dont really understand the question, didnt he only put the Sil together from his fathers unfinished drafts or whatever? Not trying to be rude, I just dont understand.
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03-12-2004, 02:43 AM | #25 | |
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03-12-2004, 02:48 AM | #26 |
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Gotcha. I'll check around later, but I havent noticed it anywhere either, and the sword brings up a good point as well; would any sword have worked to bring about the doom of Beleg, or was it that sword, rather than Turin that caused Beleg (who kicks ass) to die?
Maybe Jonny just threw it in and never got around to clarifying it.
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03-16-2004, 01:28 PM | #27 |
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I like that little part in chpt. 23 where Tuor, Túrin's cousin, actually sees Túrin go by past the Pools of Ivrin, but they don't speak, and they don't know who the other person is. They were first cousins, but never met each other. They would have been quite a team together!
I agree with the people that say Túrin's pride caused a lot of his troubles, and I think it's good to compare Túrin to his cousin Tuor, and compare the choices they made early on, and what motivated them (pride, all too often, in Túrin's case) and where their choices led them. Tuor seems able to show some restraint, but Túrin just looses it when he gets angry. But Tuor was raised by the Elves pretty much from birth, where Túrin was sent from his mother and sister, whom he loved, to Thingol's court. Yet Tuor was captured and enslaved by the Easterlings, and this didn't seem to damage his heart in the way Túrin's heart was damaged ... Yes, Beleg is cool! His death was a tragedy
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 03-16-2004 at 01:32 PM. |
03-16-2004, 01:35 PM | #28 | |
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I think the difference between Turin and Tuor was that Tuor never really knew his father, so he never got a chance to really get fired up about anything. His mom died early too (if I remember correctly). He was a ramblin' man (like Hank Williams Jr.), he seemed to delight in the road, and in exploring things and admiring their beauty (run on sentence).
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03-16-2004, 02:50 PM | #29 |
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Ihink the real difference is that Turin learned excessive and self destructive pride from his mother.
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03-16-2004, 06:02 PM | #30 | |
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I think Tuor had plenty of fire - I love the account of the FOG ... but this is too off-topic, I'll wait for chpt. 23. I agree with you, Lefty - I think he got the pride mostly from his mother. I just want to bop her on the head sometimes when I read the Narn! I wonder how much came from Hurin? Hurin was proud, but in a better sense than Morwen was, IMO.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-21-2004, 08:43 PM | #31 | ||
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Also we have the Curse of Túrin towards Menegroth, that came to happen in our next chapter. Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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03-22-2004, 07:26 AM | #32 | |
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There is nothing wrong in itself with being proud. It is only hurtful when pride becomes a hinder against doing the right thing. Morwen's fault was imo to reject Melian's offer of coming to Doriath and stay there together with her son. But this she did not do out of pride only, but also because she still hoped for Húrin to return, knowing in her heart that he was not dead.
With all this talk about Túrin's pride, I'd like to highlight his other qualities as well, as it is described in this passage from UT, the Narn: Quote:
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03-22-2004, 01:35 PM | #33 |
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Yes, I like that little story of Turin and Sador.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-23-2004, 12:47 PM | #34 |
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I agree with Arty that too much blame has been put on Túrin's pride.
Who met Túrin that did not like him? Thingol, Orodreth, Beleg, Gwindor, the outlaws, Mîm, Finduilas, Niniel, Manthor (from the wanderings). Very different persons, yet they all loved Túrin. He had to be a very good mate, if the curse had not been over his head.
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03-24-2004, 09:39 PM | #35 | |
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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04-01-2004, 05:09 PM | #36 |
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I've never been a big Túrin fan, because I think he DID let his pride control him too much, but I must say I just re-read the UT version of the Narn and came out with a little more compassion for him.
It was also interesting (and sad) that it was by the actions of his mother, Morwen (who seems to have even MORE pride), that "the first strand of the fate of Túrin was woven", when she refused to "humble her pride" to be the alms-guest of Thingol. And this was thru denying Húrin's counsel - "Therefore the voice of Húrin, or the memory of his voice, was denied, and the first strand of the fate of Túrin was woven."
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-01-2004 at 05:10 PM. |
04-23-2014, 10:00 PM | #37 |
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I just happened to pick up the Silmarillion today - and started (re-)reading this chapter. I couldn't BELIEVE how much happened every two pages. This story is just PACKED!!! I had forgotten - or had not realized before.
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12-03-2018, 07:13 AM | #38 |
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With discussing Thingol of late and how he started to fall from grace I became aware I had missed a rather important development with him in this chapter. Going by how he rather disliked Men before he got one as son-in-law, he really became convertred by the time Túrin came around.
He takes Túrin as his foster-son, now that is nothing to sneeze at, certainly not because he was king. This isn't just grudging sympathy for these base mortals, this is as much respect as he would give to an Eldar noble. And he doesn't drop him the moment if becomes uncomfortable with the whole Saeros-business. He actually was improving! |
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