01-16-2016, 10:14 PM | #1 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Gandalf's Transformation
I have a question - especially for those who have read the parts of HOME series that involve the development of the LOTR story.
A few weeks ago - a guy at work was talking about Gandalf's transformation from "the Grey" to "the White". Found that this guy has not read the books himself, but was informed by his "ultra-smart" older brother. What he claimed was: that Gandalf had a choice of what he would come back as. For instance - could have chosen to be an Elf, or whatever. I'm reasonably well-studied, and this sounded totally new to me. So, I wondered if he either got it wrong, or if there's something like this in HOME. Anybody familiar with that? Thanks!
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01-18-2016, 04:01 PM | #2 | |
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It sounds like ‘his “ultra-smart” older brother’ has been playing a lot of Dungeons & Dragons, and assumed what happened to Gandalf is the old 7th-level Druid spell Reincarnate or 6th-level Magic-User spell of the same name. I guess he’s dispensing with the d00 roll; otherwise, Gandalf would have no choice in his form: he could’ve been a pixie, a faun, or a dwarf, too. (Presumably not a half-orc or hobgoblin, since one note says, “Very good or very evil persons will not be reincarnated as a creature whose general alignment is the opposite.”)
There are several paragraphs in Letter 156 in which Tolkien discusses Gandalf’s return with his friend, the Jesuit priest Robert Murray. Quote:
It is perhaps noteworthy that Gwaihir the Eagle told Gandalf, “You are light as a feather… The Sun shines through you.” It sounds like Gandalf returned faded, as the Elves were fading in Middle-earth and as Frodo was slightly faded by the Morgul-blade. It’s hard to see Gandalf returning in this context as anything or anyone but “Gandalf”, albeit enhanced, “new and improved”. “Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf. Yes, you may still call me Gandalf.” |
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01-18-2016, 10:24 PM | #3 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Yes - that's the story as I know it. I have read everything authoritative on Gandalf - except whatever might be found in the HOME series.
I knew that an earlier concept of Gandalf was that he - and the Black Riders, I believe - were Numenoreans. And so I wondered if something like what I heard went along with that original concept, and that certain portions of the HOME might bring it to light.
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01-20-2016, 03:59 AM | #4 | ||||||
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Valandil, you’re right.
I looked through Return of the Shadow and Treason of Isengard tonight. I have recently re-read most of War of the Ring in the process of completing my reread of Lord of the Rings. (Many detailed maps in ToI and WotR.) In WotR, “Siege of Gondor” (p 326 American paperback), Quote:
In ToI, “XXIII Notes on Various Topics” (p 422, American paperback), Christopher Tolkien discusses “Some … notes [that] may well be earlier than the time we have reached, others later”. This short chapter is wedged between two chapters of material written in 1944. Quote:
ToI, “Gandalf’s Delay” (p 9), Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Three things were definitely retained in the published story.
Gandalf’s power vis-*-vis the Witch-king might have been altered, too. At Weathertop, the Witch-king with four of his fellows withdrew when Gandalf rode up in the daylight; but that night, Gandalf was “hard put to it. ... I could not hope to do more.” (Op. cit.) However, Glorfindel said that he and a few others in Rivendell could “ride openly against the Nine”. Presumably Gandalf was more powerful than Glorfindel, but perhaps because he was wrapped in a mortal coil as one of the Istari, Glorfindel was able to wield more power than Gandalf the Grey. I don’t think that means But I would be delighted for the guy (or his brother) to prove me wrong. At least, I would enjoy the debate! Last edited by Alcuin : 01-20-2016 at 04:18 AM. |
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01-20-2016, 08:59 AM | #5 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Thanks for doing all that research Alcuin! I hope in the not-too-distant future to purchase and read the entire HOME series, and then I can answer these questions myself.
I think it's less than 50-50 that this idea of Gandalf having a choice, as was described to me, was ever in the storyline. But it's plausible - and may fit with this early concept of Gandalf. And - if this awesome older brother actually read HOME (and maybe there, found an obscure note to that effect), then he would be awesome indeed! Meanwhile - I wonder if I can dig up more definitive information stating directly that Gandalf was Numenorean in early concept. Don't at all remember where this was.
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01-20-2016, 07:41 PM | #6 |
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*haven't progressed as far in HoME, have been saving them for the proper moment, of which there haven't been as many around lately*
Or Gandalf's being bound in flesh is not as strong as before his fight with the Balrog and subsequent bleeching. If the Valar reckoned their emissary needed more strenght upon his return, they may have 'lightened' the reincarnation progress. It would appear that a possessing a physical body put limits on certain mental, or magical power as seen with Sauron. So giving Gandalf a little less body may be a side-effect of heightened ainur-power. Maybe that's what Gwaihir detects. |
01-21-2016, 12:44 AM | #7 |
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Don't forget - he hadn't had a bite to eat in some time!
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
02-02-2016, 10:07 PM | #8 |
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The trouble, i find, with reading Alcuin's posts is, very shortly, you have forgotten the original question, and before long you find yourself straying out of time and space, on new paths of which we shalt not speak (mainly because you then get diverted onto another thought or line of thoughts and forget them)... until at last darkness takes you...
No wonder, then, that Gandalf forgot to eat! See? I've plum forgotten now what i was going to say. ..well blow me down with a feather! *whistles* and throws arm out... " An Eagle for BB, please!" Ill have to come back to this when i can remember |
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