01-21-2011, 12:50 PM | #21 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 49
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Even assuming that Tol Eressa was not a part of Valinor proper, surely travel between the two was not restricted was it? Meaning that even if Frodo and Company LIVED on Tol Eressa, they may have visited Valinor.
And surely Elrond, the son of the saviors of middle earth, and Galadriel, a quarter-Vanya and a daughter of the faithful Finarfin, would not be barred from Valinor proper?
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A Elbereth Gilthoniel! Hail Luthien Tinuviel! Hail Beren Erchamion and the fair Dior! Who died before his time, curse the oath of Feanor! Hail his daughter Elwing and Earendil! Forbearers of the Peredhil! Alone among the children free to choose the Edain or the Eldalie! A Elbereth Gilthoniel! Hail Manwe on Taniquetil! |
01-21-2011, 12:55 PM | #22 | |
Hobbit
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 49
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A Elbereth Gilthoniel! Hail Luthien Tinuviel! Hail Beren Erchamion and the fair Dior! Who died before his time, curse the oath of Feanor! Hail his daughter Elwing and Earendil! Forbearers of the Peredhil! Alone among the children free to choose the Edain or the Eldalie! A Elbereth Gilthoniel! Hail Manwe on Taniquetil! |
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01-21-2011, 03:22 PM | #23 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
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The story of Tuor getting to Aman is rather tenuous. In addition to there being no actual witness source in the material for it, it is stated in an "and it is said" fashion at the end of his tale, very like the poet who wrote that bit did not believe it himself. I believe it was just some embelishment added onto the oral tradition at some point (in the internal logic of JRRT's creation) and that his ship just wound up trapped in the Shadowy Isles.
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 01-21-2011 at 03:28 PM. |
01-21-2011, 05:00 PM | #24 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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So if my memory is correct, Tolkien at least at some point was considering Tuor and Idril to never having reached Aman but having become stranded in the Shadowy Seas instead.
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01-22-2011, 02:06 AM | #25 | ||||||
Salt Miner
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As far as the heritage of Elrond or Galadriel, I don’t believe those came into account: only what they did mattered. For what it’s worth, I don’t disagree with you: I think that they were permitted to go on to Eldamar. - Quote:
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01-24-2011, 07:22 PM | #26 | |
Hobbit
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 49
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We both agree that there are two sorts of mythology in the works "direct mythology" by Tolkien himself and "indirect mythology" which is the legends of the legendary beings: the elves. Yet both of these have their origin in the mind of Tolkien, and thus if there is no contradiction with the "direct mythology" I believe that we should trust the elves. Are they not wiser than mortal men?
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A Elbereth Gilthoniel! Hail Luthien Tinuviel! Hail Beren Erchamion and the fair Dior! Who died before his time, curse the oath of Feanor! Hail his daughter Elwing and Earendil! Forbearers of the Peredhil! Alone among the children free to choose the Edain or the Eldalie! A Elbereth Gilthoniel! Hail Manwe on Taniquetil! |
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01-24-2011, 07:44 PM | #27 | |
Hobbit
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 49
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As to my marshaling texts, I don't own any of the books, and running to the library every time I wished to post would get old rather quickly I think or maybe I'm just lazy Indeed, you are correct, the "my daddy was such-and-such routine" didn't seem to work very well in Arda! I didn't really mean it that way, more along the lines that if their passage came down to pleading before the Valar, Elrond and Galadriel would have some very convincing spokespeople! For what it's worth, I don't disagree with you either, Gimli and the three hobbits were already under a good deal of grace to be in Aman at all, to be allowed to the cities of the Valar and the Vanyar would just be too much (no offence to the Fellowship intended!) Thanks again for all your input! You have always been the one of the main posters on these rather hair-brained threads I have started!
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A Elbereth Gilthoniel! Hail Luthien Tinuviel! Hail Beren Erchamion and the fair Dior! Who died before his time, curse the oath of Feanor! Hail his daughter Elwing and Earendil! Forbearers of the Peredhil! Alone among the children free to choose the Edain or the Eldalie! A Elbereth Gilthoniel! Hail Manwe on Taniquetil! |
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07-26-2011, 09:04 AM | #28 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Belgium
Posts: 24
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Okay, I'm really a newbie and I don't quite get it for the moment, haha. When the Noldor came back to the Undying Lands, after the defeat of Morgoth, weren't they allowed to sail to Eldamar? Did they need to stay on Eressëa?
I understand that the Hobbits and Gimli weren't allowed to sail to Valinor & Eldamar, because they were already very lucky that they could sail to Aman in the first place. Personally, I like to think that Elrond, Galadriel and the Noldor could live in and visit Eldamar, because their relatives and friends live there. But maybe I'm completely wrong, haha. Sorry for interrupting your intelligent discussion with my simple questions. :') |
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