10-06-2010, 02:31 PM | #41 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
I am here...
So, as Alcuin is around, let us continue our investigation. Quote:
A question immediately arises: how did they get the horses that were left by the Stonebows bridge to Crickhollow? The answer can only be obtained from a draft published in HOME 7 "The treason of Isengard", p.13: Quote:
Note that according to the later version in RC, it were our bold G (the bridge-guardian), and H (Khamul's buddy from Dol-Guldur) who did the deed. Hundred points to GH! Khamul remained in Crickhollow, watching the house, and did it badly, as he missed Fatty's flight. 50 points from Khamul. Now questions. 1. Why didn't Khamul and E attack immediately on the night of Sept.28? Did they need an additional nazgul so badly? Or did they need horses to escape immediately after an attack on the house? 2. Why couldn't E and G and the 3 horses force their way through the Gate of Buckland on their way to Khamul? Was secrecy really that important to justify all this trouble with the ferry? 3. Why in Middle-Earth did they wait all night long by the door of an empty house? Last edited by Gordis : 10-06-2010 at 03:57 PM. |
||
10-07-2010, 02:22 AM | #42 | ||
Salt Miner
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
|
Quote:
|
||
10-07-2010, 03:01 AM | #43 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Quote:
So, I don't believe they needed a living man or hobbit to operate the ferry. Moreover, the presence of an unfamiliar midget on the raft might have unnerved the horses. Quote:
No I think it were G and E who operated the raft. E by the way had recent boating experience: Khamul and he and 9 horses were ferried from Dol Guldur across the Anduin to meet the other Seven in northern Rohan back in the summer. Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 10-07-2010 at 04:07 AM. |
|||
10-07-2010, 03:14 AM | #44 | |
Salt Miner
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
|
Names and proposed nicknames to replace letters.
These letters are cumbersome. Just to make it easier on my eyeballs and my aging mind, I’d like to propose some working names for these characters to help me keep up with who’s who. If anyone doesn’t like them or prefers some other name, please speak up! It’s just very confusing and frustrating to talk about B & E & G & especially I, which is easily confused with the pronoun. Here’s Gordis’ list from the first post, which uses Tolkien’s designations in the manuscripts. Quote:
Here’s my proposed list:
Again, nickname changes welcome. I’d just like to dispense with the confusing and frustrating letters, if no one objects too much to a little silliness for clarity’s sake. |
|
10-07-2010, 03:59 AM | #45 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Quote:
Perhaps to commemorate Weasley family more fully, we can call BC Bill and Charles? I didn't understand the reasoning behind Ida, though. Isn't it a girl's name? Maybe call him Ilion, to match Homer? Last edited by Gordis : 10-07-2010 at 04:04 AM. |
|
10-07-2010, 06:28 AM | #46 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
Or maybe we should name G Gordis?
__________________
We are not things. |
10-07-2010, 12:05 PM | #47 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Heh
But I don't have an F-buddy! |
10-07-2010, 07:42 PM | #48 |
Salt Miner
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
|
Ok, ladies, let’s behave: there are youngsters present.
No, I’m not a Harry Potter fan. I have no idea who Fred + George are, but if you like the names, I’m delighted. I don’t know who Bill and Charles are, either. Bill and Charles: how about Buck and Chuck? “Homer” came from “Homer Simpson” because I’d referred to H & I as “Frick and Frack” and facetiously accused them of incompetence. Homer Simpson’s wife is Marge, but “Marge” begins with the wrong letter, so I settled for “Ida”. Homer and Idaho? (as in, “I – D’oh!”) After all, if Indiana Jones can hunt for ancient treasures for the US government, surely “Idaho Smith” can hunt for the Ring for Sauron, right? I am neutral on this as long as the monikers are short and easy to remember. In the meantime, I am arranging notes on this end. |
10-10-2010, 11:51 AM | #49 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Oh, call them whatever you like, as long as the first letter matches.
But I would love people (if anyone is interested in it) try to answer my questions regarding the Crickhollow episode: Quote:
|
|
10-16-2010, 06:32 PM | #50 | ||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
|
Quote:
Of course, their horses were enormously important to the Nazgul. They were combination seeing eye dogs/transportation without which this mission would have been unthinkable. In this case, whether the Nazgul were to chase, be chased, or simply move on to the next stage, their horses were vital. Another way to look at it is: Was it of greater importance to be more certain of retrieving the Ring, or was it more important to be a couple of hours quicker in retrieving it? Quote:
Unless there is something in the notes you have been quoting which says otherwise, I don't think they were outside the house all that long. After the 3 Nazgul approached the house, Fatty ran “more than a mile” and babbled a little while before the alarm was raised. Since we can probably safely assume he didn't merely jog to his neighbors' house, I would think 20 minutes or less probably passed between the Nazgul taking their positions outside the house and breaking down the door. That isn't too long and can probably be explained by need for caution and/or even hesitation in entering a potentially very important and dangerous situation. |
||
10-19-2010, 05:12 AM | #51 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Quote:
Thank you for your answers. So, shall we move on? |
|
10-19-2010, 05:38 PM | #52 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
|
Thank you.
Sounds good to me. I look forward to seeing your take on the next part of the story. |
10-20-2010, 01:51 PM | #53 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
So, let us turn to the adventures of the other nazgul company (ABCF), led by Angmar, the Lord of the Nazgul.
On the night of September 22, after having forced the passage over Sarn Ford, the WK sent Khamul and his group across the Ford into the Shire, while he himself and BCF "took care" of the remaining rangers. The latter, cut off on the south-eastern Bank of Baranduin, took flight north along the Greenway, likely attempting to reach Bree. (Did they know that Aragorn was there, I wonder?). The nazgul on their swift horses soon overtook the Dunedain and either cut them down, or drove them into the wilderness east of the road. Anyway, not a single one reached Bree, it seems. Question: how many rangers were there at Sarn Ford to begin with you think? And how many survived? Then, Angmar likely left Fred to guard Sarn Ford, and together with Buddy and Chum he made a camp at Andrath (where the road passes between the Barrowdowns and the South Downs). What does a nazgul camp look like, I wonder? I bet they didn't light a campfire... But did they have a tent with them, for instance? Did they sleep at all? Was the place of the camp chosen wisely? Or was it too far both from Bree and the Shire? |
10-20-2010, 11:20 PM | #54 |
Salt Miner
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
|
Wait. I thought all the Nazgûl were at Sarn Ford: that's why the Dúnedain there were overcome, was it not?
|
10-22-2010, 02:00 PM | #55 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
All the Nine were there together when they overcame the guard of rangers. But some rangers took flight up the Greenway and only 4 of the nazgul (ABCF) pursued them. The other 5 nazgul under Khamul crossed the Ford into The Shire.
What is curious, is that seemingly the rangers were positioned on the South-Eastern bank of Baranduin, with the Ford at their backs. Why not wait on the further bank, the Shire bank, where they could shoot at those who try to cross? |
10-22-2010, 08:13 PM | #56 | |||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
|
Quote:
My guess would be that there were no tents in this camp. You said earlier that Sauron ordered the Nazgul to use haste in hunting the Ring. Anything beyond the bare necessities would be a hindrance to speed. Perhaps on other journeys, when speed was less of an issue, Angmar set up camps and tents similar to those used by other great Numenorean lords during their travels in the Second Age, though surely with a darker feel. I personally don't think that the Nazgul slept. It doesn't seem to fit with their tortured existences. Surely they weren't active 24/7, though. Quote:
Really, from what I can see on your map, it looks like he chose a strategically strong position. Looking at the lines you drew indicating the Nazguls' movements on your Bree-Weathertop map, doesn't it seem like a nice, centralized location – right in the middle of all the action? Quote:
What I find interesting about this is the thought that, as Gandalf pointed out, though the Nazgul couldn't be killed with arrows, their steeds could. The loss of their horses would have been truly devastating for the Nazgul at this point, but apparently the rangers were unable to unhorse even one of the Nine. The horses should have undoubtedly and without question been their targets. |
|||
10-23-2010, 04:32 AM | #57 | |||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Quote:
Otherwise what would constitute "a camp" which had to be "made"? I don't think some saddlebags hidden in the bushes would count as camp. Quote:
Quote:
That may be one of the reasons why he himself didn't go into the Shire or to Bree, but remained behind. The other reason was the necessity to guard the approaches to the area from the East (Rivendell) and especially from the South. Remember what Saruman told the WK in Isengard? Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 10-23-2010 at 04:34 AM. |
|||||||
10-24-2010, 02:02 PM | #58 | |||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I would like to give you a guess concerning your question about the number of rangers present at Sarn Ford, but I honestly have no idea. |
|||
10-24-2010, 02:18 PM | #59 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
CAB!!!
I am so happy to see you again! Discussing Tolkien with you is always a great pleasure. And you are right about the"handicapped, outnumbered, outgunned, under-informed underdogs far from home or aid." |
10-24-2010, 05:10 PM | #60 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
|
It is good to hear from you, too.
I had set up this screen name just to participate some in the riddle thread, but saw that you and Alcuin were back and couldn't resist. I hope we keep this thread active. It is too interesting and you have put too much work into it to let it sit unfinished. Many thanks to Alcuin for bumping it. |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
What All Was Wrong with PJ's LOTR | Wally | Lord of the Rings Movies | 425 | 08-14-2016 08:43 AM |
How to take a Ring from an unwilling Ring-wielder? - crazy ideas | Gordis | Middle Earth | 217 | 10-03-2013 03:43 PM |
Stranger than fiction... Real "Rings" | frodosampippinmerry | Lord of the Rings Books | 15 | 03-09-2009 07:55 PM |
Ring's sentience and Ring detection | Gordis | Lord of the Rings Books | 17 | 01-04-2008 09:37 AM |
Why did the Ring betray Isildur? | Nurvingiel | Middle Earth | 138 | 12-24-2007 01:52 PM |