10-14-2009, 10:40 PM | #1 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hobbiton, New Jersey
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Women of LOTR
With the Lord of the Rings being such a male- character heavy series, the women often get lost in the shuffle...for example, there is not a single woman in the fellowship! I'm not going off on a feminist rant, I was just wondering what other's opinions were on these topics...Which woman was strongest? What is the definition of femininity in LOTR?
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10-15-2009, 12:14 AM | #2 | |
Salt Miner
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
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There is nothing “misogynous” about Lord of the Rings. Combat does tend to be an activity in which men are primarily engaged, while women and children are hidden or protected. This fact was not lost on Éowyn, who confronted Aragorn with these words (RotK, “Passing of the Grey Company”):
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Galadriel is no slacker, either. Neither is Rosie Cotton. Arwen isn’t timid, and you don’t have to reference conflating Glorfindel with Arwen in the movie. I think First Age women should be in this discussion, too. What about Lúthien? Niënor? Andreth? Morwen? M*riel? Idril? Aredhel? None of these people were shrinking violets. Second Age: Erendis, Tar-Ancalimë; we don’t see much of Tar-Telperion, but I think the textual evidence is that she was one tough cookie and a solid administrator. My vote for toughest woman in all of Tolkien: Haleth Haldad’s daughter. But yes, I am an Éowyn fan. I don’t know. What’s the “definition of masculinity in LOTR”? What’s the definition in real life? As for why there were no women in the Fellowship: who should have been sent? Should we go back and re-write it? Is that a flaw, a convention, or a likely outcome under the purported circumstances? Were the Elven women likely to go out on the Road or the dangerous journey to Mordor? The Hobbit women? Any of the women of the Northern Dúnedain? And the most dangerous question: What would probably have happened in real life if these things had transpired? In that light, is Éowyn more or less outstanding? |
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10-22-2009, 12:55 PM | #3 | |
Lady of Andúnië
Join Date: May 2009
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Quote:
She is out of all the major female characters in LOTR (not counting the other works here, for the sake of this thread) the "strongest". Why? Because she represents strength by being feminine. She is not disobedient, trying to be a warrior or something else she is not. She is not in a "leadership" position of power. But she is something that the others don't seem to embody... She is the quintessential "supportive wife". Feminism-types, don't even start with me as to how that is not "powerful" - It is. The colloquial phrase "behind every great man there is a woman" is embodied by women like Arwen. Without her being a great "helpmeet" for Aragorn, who knows what kind of a flake he may have turned out to be? (I jest, but only in part.. ).
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" ...But the Exiles on the shores of the sea, if they turned towards the West in the desire of their hearts, spoke of Mar-nu-Falmar that was whelmed in the waves, Akallabêth the Downfallen, Atalantë in the Eldarin tongue." "Ye who believe in affection that hopes, and endures, and is patient, Ye who believe in the beauty and strength of woman's devotion, List to the mournful tradition still sung by the pines of the forest ... " ~ Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, Evangeline |
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10-23-2009, 11:11 AM | #4 |
Chaotic Good
Join Date: Apr 2008
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I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you there, Voronwen. All of Tolkien's female characters represent different aspects of femininity, but I felt that of those in LotR, Arwen isn't one I'd call strong.
She simply isn't developed enough as a character to give that impression. We know about her love for Aragorn, but it's very passive, and it seems more as if she is merely the 'prize' - the beautiful elven woman he will get to marry if he is successful. A hero having to complete his quest before he can marry the woman he loves is a common trope in literature - but it doesn't often make for strong female characters. And if we compare Arwen to Lúthien, who she parallels? Ok, so Lúthien too is described as beautiful. She's half-Maia. But she actively helps Beren with his quest for the Silmaril, she's involved, an integral part of the story. Without her song lulling Morgoth to sleep, Beren wouldn't have been able to take the Silmaril. That makes her strong, whereas to my mind Arwen, in a similar situation, is not. If you're referring to her strength as nurturing wife and mother, I'd say that Rosie Cotton is much more representative of that than she is. (and it's certainly not anti-feminist to recognize that 'strength' can be found in traditional feminine roles as well as those of combat, leadership etc.) As for who I would pick as the strongest - probably Galadriel. Not so much for her position of leadership as simply for her ability to resist the temptation of the Ring. It shows strength, wisdom, and character growth (would Silmarillion-era Galadriel have made the same choice?) Likewise Éowyn, for defying social convention and expectation, and following her heart - both as a warrior and as a healer. I don't think there should have been a woman in the Fellowship. It wouldn't have made sense, given the cultural attitudes that the characters hold about gender roles. If the story was set on modern-day Earth, then yes, the all-male Fellowship would merit complaint, but as it is? It fits the context and the society in which they lived. (But I still think Arwen is problematic. from a feminist standpoint, as is the narrative's treatment of Tar-Ancalime for not wanting to marry, if I recall rightly. It's a while since I read it.)
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10-23-2009, 12:29 PM | #5 | |
Lady of Andúnië
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Quote:
Arwen's is quiet, behind the scenes. It's her steadfastness, and the strength found in the fulfillment of her role (not the denial of it, as with Eowyn - you could almost argue that disobedience and non-acceptance of her role was a weakness on Eowyn's part) that makes me think of her as strong. At least, that's my personal view of Arwen and what, as a character, she stands for. These are the qualities that make her the female character i relate best to in all of Tolkien's work. Chalk it up to personal bias.
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" ...But the Exiles on the shores of the sea, if they turned towards the West in the desire of their hearts, spoke of Mar-nu-Falmar that was whelmed in the waves, Akallabêth the Downfallen, Atalantë in the Eldarin tongue." "Ye who believe in affection that hopes, and endures, and is patient, Ye who believe in the beauty and strength of woman's devotion, List to the mournful tradition still sung by the pines of the forest ... " ~ Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, Evangeline |
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06-26-2010, 05:50 AM | #6 | |
Hobbit
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Quote:
I have to disagree with you there. It's a while since I read ROTK, but if I remember rightly, Arwen comes to Aragorn in a dream and tells him to take the path in the land of the dead, guides him and gives him hope. She's an integral part in the story; in a way, she represents the beauty and strength of Middle Earth that Aragorn is fighting to keep alive. It's interesting that Tolkien never really explores Arwen's character. In FOTR, when we meet her at Rivendell, I always felt she was supremely wise and that the bond between her and Aragorn went between the worlds. She's far more than a "prize," she is his life. Perhaps in LOTR Arwen represents the ancient and wisest femininity, giver of life and hope, the eternal mother, goddess, almost. It's for these reasons, as well as her beauty, that she is called the Evenstar, the last remnant of unparalleled light of the Eldar in Middle Earth, and reminds her people of Luthien so much. While I loved the character of Eowyn, I do not believe she was the strongest or the wisest female character in Tolkien. Throughout LOTR, she was caught in a struggle against her own fears and doubts, and though at last she triumphantly overcomes them, she almost gives in to death. However she too is integral and represents the warrior spirit of the women of Rohan. I am also unsure about Galadriel - she was reckless in youth, disobeying the Valar in the Noldorian revolt, but she does grow wiser over the ages. But she does desire the Ring, and this is a weakness. Reading Tolkien, an incredibly strong image of motherly love emerges. Many of the great warriors and kings of Middle Earth had the strength of their mothers behind them; a good example is Morwen, mother of Turin and Nienor, who never stops fighting for her children and whose love for them sees her follow them across Middle Earth. In childhood, her counsel and love holds up Turin even when he must leave her; sustained by her memory, he stays strong even in the hardest journeys. In my opinion, Melian, mother of Luthien, is the strongest woman (well, Maia, but still) in Tolkien. In the first age, her stronghold in Doriath with King Thingol keeps Morgoth at bay, and her love for Thingol keeps his rein strong and just. It is because of her power, "the girdle of Melian" that not every part of the Hither Shores become swamped in Morgoth's evil. In many of the other tales in The Silmarillion, she gives guidance and wisdom, especially in the tale of Beren and Luthien and regarding the Children of Hurin. For me, she embodies the spirit of all of Tolkien's women characters. |
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06-26-2010, 11:00 AM | #7 | |||
Princess of the Noldor (and Administrative Empress of the Lone Islands)
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Quote:
Elrond sends a message to Aragorn with Elrohir, reminding him of the Paths of the Dead. At the same time Arwen sends him the banner that she has made, and sends him a message with Halbarad to remind him of their hope. Quote:
I agree that she guides him and gives him hope. But only in the movie does she come in a dream. Quote:
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06-26-2010, 05:57 PM | #8 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Beneath the waves.
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Ahh I see. Thank you for clearing that up.
Tolkien's women always possess an air of mystery. I think he's slightly in awe of his own characters, sometimes. |
06-27-2010, 06:21 PM | #9 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
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You cannot much top Luthien's exploits.
Attacking Sauron's Tower on the Island of Werewolves with Huan the uber-hound and winning, after Finrod, Beren, and 10 mighty Noldor companions were pwned by Sauron. Crossing Morgoth's lands, invading Angband with Beren, and comming out alive and free and with a prize. Doing the whole Orpheus thing, making Mandos weep, and getting Beren back for a while.
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 07-15-2010 at 12:00 PM. |
07-08-2010, 07:30 AM | #10 |
Elf Lord
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For some reason I now picture Mandos saying "That's the best audition we've had so far. That's a yes from me. Not only do you get Beren back, but you're through to the next round..."
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07-08-2010, 10:42 AM | #11 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Simon Cowell, of course, just makes snarky remarks.
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07-08-2010, 04:56 PM | #12 |
Hobbit
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Haha, that's a great image. Mandos - Noldorian prince and talent show host on the side.
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