07-16-2009, 08:43 PM | #41 |
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Inked,
You're right---and I completely agree---that there is a difference between "good" and "nice." Rowling points it out more than once in the series. However, as much as the Slytherins liked Snape, I think Gordis' reading of the books remains. Snape turned "good" for Lily's sake, and no other. A noble but selfish reason, though I think Rowling shows how he gradually became more and more Dumbledore's real ally. Though D did have some reservations at the back of his mind about Snape, he always emphasized that he trusted Snape. So, back to square one: I don't like Snape. He's a good and interesting character, a very strong creation for an author, and a vital part of the story...but that doesn't mean I have to like him ;-) PS: See Slughorn for an example of judging a character by the colors of his banner, and then being wrong. Surprised me, in a good way. PPS: Doesn't Slughorn act as a second Sorting Hat?
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07-17-2009, 03:02 AM | #42 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Sorry for posting out of turn...
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Just compare the two characters and you will see the sad truth about Snape. (I decided to open a new thread for my rant about Blacks) That seems very interesting, but I am not sure I understand what you mean, Hector. Could you, please, elaborate? Last edited by Gordis : 07-17-2009 at 03:04 AM. |
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07-19-2009, 03:15 AM | #43 | ||
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I think you've got Snape wrong Gordis. Snape was a good man. The reason he participated in some of the horrible stuff the Death Easters got up to is because he was a double agent. If he had, say, stuck his neck out for Charity Burbage, he would have blown his cover. He was the only Order member to penetrate into Voldemort's inner circle; his role was crucial. In fact, he was the only Order member to do so. He was able to give them help no one else could.
And while he doesn't stop the Death Eaters (he can't, since it's crucial they think he's one of them) he doesn't jump in to their activities with relish. He only kills Dumbledore because Dumbledore asked him to. I can't recall him murdering or torturing anyone else. Now, Snape is good, but he isn't nice. He never gets over his rivalry with James Potter and as a result, he is permanently set against Harry. He favours the Slytherin students outrageously. He bullies Neville (extra bad since I love Neville; he's my favourite character). He's racist. Some of this is Snape putting on a show for the children of Death Eaters (Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Nott) but some of it I think is Snape being a jerk. But you can be good and a total jerk. Edit: Okay, you don't have Snape wrong. I do agree that Regulus is awesome though.
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07-20-2009, 03:29 PM | #44 | |
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Snape was born in 1960, graduated in 1978 and likely got the Dark mark straight away, Lily died in 1981. There were three years for Snape to do all sorts of crimes serving Voldemort. Regulus Black was younger than Snape, yet he had ample time to get disgusted by Death Eater activities and to repent. Snape didn't, not for moral reasons. |
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07-24-2009, 07:30 PM | #45 | ||
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When Snape got the Dark Mark and what he did when he got it is pure speculation. I still think he's a good man. Selfishly-motivated, yes, not always mature, yes, but inherently a brave and good person.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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07-27-2009, 11:10 PM | #46 |
Elf Lord
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No, Nurv, Snape was not inherently good or brave. He repented of his weaknesses and failings (which had cost him Lily's friendship and possibly her love) and he became brave and good by his choice.
Snape lost his way in the dark wood just like Dante had. Snape recovered his first love (God) just like Dante did through Beatrice. Lily Evans Potter was Snape's Beatrice and the vessel of God to which he gave himself to God. you really should read John Granger's works on the symbolic writers and their messages to get a better handle on the connections. Snape, like Harry, makes bad choices. Snape, like Harry, repents of his bad choices. Snape, like Harry, chooses to believe and do right. Snape, like Harry, dies for those he loves, doing right. Snape is the character who, like Harry, suffers long and uses it well to redeem the situation at hand.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
07-28-2009, 12:38 AM | #47 | ||
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I don't disagree with you Inked. But I do think Snape is a good and brave person, because he chose to be.
It's interesting how alike Snape and Harry are. They probably have more in common than Harry and James Potter.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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08-28-2009, 09:51 PM | #48 | ||||
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On a side note, I would say that Harry was one of my least favorite characters in the fifth and sixth books and I sincerely wished we could hear the story from someone else's point of view. He seemed like a girl PMSing, the way that one little statement could set him off yelling. I suppose I could understand, him being obsessed with that door, and freaked out about Voldemort in his head, but still. I think a lot of conflict in that book could have been taken care of if he'd just shut up for two minutes to hear what people around him had to say for themselves instead of thinking that his assumptions were always right. I think someone mentioned him not listening to his friends, actually. Quote:
Snape, apparently, is a FUN person to psycho-analyze. I never thought for once that any of those people should have been expelled. I was glad they were there. Fred and George were also favorites (for different reasons than Luna, of course.. actually, maybe not so different).
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03-17-2010, 07:22 PM | #49 |
Elf Lord
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I am, of course, reviving this thread to remind people of why Hector should be President for Life!
Nah, not really. For serious Harry Potter fans who might be interested, there are going to be two opportunities in Missouri and surrounding environs to hear the hogwarts professor, John Granger, address Deathly Hallows. The first will be on Sunday 11 April 2010 at Christ Church Anglican, 2112 Bryan Valley Commercial Drive, O'Fallon, MO, at 7:00 PM. The talk will be Unlocking Deathly Hallows:Five Keys for the Serious Reader. "Unlocking Deathly Hallows: Five Keys for the Serious Reader Ms. Rowling is a brilliant writer who uses specific tools to craft her meaning and create the effects in her readers that she wants – tools she borrows from Austen, Shakespeare, Dickens, Lewis, and Dante! John raids Ms. Rowling magic tool chest and shares how she wields the tools of narrative misdirection, literary alchemy, the hero’s journey, postmodern themes, and traditional symbolism to engage and entrance us well beyond suspended disbelief. Always a hit with Potter fans of all ages, this lecture (and the book that it comes from) opens up the mystery of fine writing and its place in the life in Christ." * The second will be on Monday 12 April 2010 at the Clinton Building, 501 Campanella, Sikeston, MO at 7:00 PM. The topic will be The Christian Content of 'Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows'. "The Christian Content of ‘Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows’ Ms. Rowling told reporters in 2000 that the last book would answer all their questions about her faith – and Deathly Hallows was no disappointment in that regard. John Granger was the first serious reader of the books to argue the stories were Christian in conception and meaning back when some Christians were burning the books. In this popular talk, he explains how the series finale is Ms. Rowling’s story about the difficulty and importance of faith, what we shouldn’t believe, and the transformations right belief make possible. The seventh book delivers on all the foreshadowing and themes of the previous books and John explains this in inspiring fashion." * * See: http://www.orthodoxspeakers.com/spea...n-granger.html Just thought you'd like to know.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
05-04-2010, 05:10 PM | #50 |
Elf Lord
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Reviving or 'Hijacking' Inked?
oh.. mia culpa, i appear to be advertising the Word for you by replying do i not? er... if there are any fangirls out there ... i guess this makes me a better looking, complicated snape-type .. er..with just a hint or er..Ortlando Bloom?? ................ anyways, bar the advertising for Jesus - i actually got round to finishing off the series - after Spock gave away that dumbledore died some years ago... bah! er.. whatever happened to spock btw? ................... Kind of an interesting discussion this... so far no one seems to have called it as i see it... there seem to be far too many shades of black and white being laboured here for my liking. But Snape is indeed interesting, is he not? Last edited by Butterbeer : 05-04-2010 at 05:14 PM. Reason: tings... oh..and the usual typos ..happy now?? P.S. i had a loverl;y mushroom stroganoff tonight... just ask if you want reci |
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