01-08-2010, 03:25 AM | #1 |
Hobbit
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Sauron's view on Domination
I've viewed the threads about the Valar possibly intervening on Sauron's takeover of Middle Earth during the Third Age, and why or why not they did more than 'just' send the Istari (which proved well enough); but what about Sauron's viewpoint? Obviously he was there during the First Age and saw that his leader was dethrowned by the Valar and Eonwe. My question is: If he tried to duplicate Melkor's actions, what would make him think that the Valar wouldn't easily overthrow him, as they did with Melkor? Yes, his lust for dominance could make him overconfident in his actions, BUT history serves as a learning curve, and, as Sauron being the most knowledgable Being on Middle Earth, in the long run, what would make him think he could do better than his predecessor? (Keep in mind that all the fell beings of Melkor multiplied in hiding, waiting for the return of their master, as Sauron SHOULD have) I know this question is highly debatable and there is no true answer, but what is wrong with sparking opinions? Thoughts?
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01-08-2010, 07:09 AM | #2 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Interesting thought.
Maybe he determined that the Valar had effectively removed themselves from direct action in the situation. Otherwise - yes, I'd say he should be a little concerned that if he WERE successful in his venture, he might lose it all to the Valar. After all... that Numenor thing hadn't gone quite the way he planned. Even when he tried to console himself with the thought that he had at least destroyed them, it was the very best of them who were saved as a remnant and destroyed him once before. The guy just may not have learned from his mistakes. Knowledge is one thing... wisdom another.
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01-09-2010, 03:37 AM | #3 |
Hobbit
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Ah, I believe your last sentence sums it up perfectly, and I doubt this thread will go much further. Good point.
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Thus he came alone to Angband's gates. . . and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. |
01-09-2010, 06:59 PM | #4 | |||
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In Morgoth’s Ring, Volume X of the History of Middle-earth series, in the chapter “Myths Transformed”, section VII has an essay by Tolkien, “Notes on Motivations” that addresses Sauron’s view on domination. (In my hardcover American edition, this starts on page 394 and runs to page 398.)
These two passages from that essay are often cited as Tolkien’s view of Sauron’s motivations. Morgoth’s insanely corrupt motivations are separately described in the essay. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I think Sauron’s view on domination was first to enforce his will upon others (“order and co-ordination, and” the avoidance of “all confusion and wasteful friction,” or at least the avoidance of what Sauron considered “confusion and wasteful friction”). He quickly matriculated to seeking to seduce Men, the weaker Incarnates, into rejecting Eru and rebelling against their Maker as had he; then to directing worship to the Enemy; then into impersonating the Enemy to obtain worship himself. Sauron was probably content for the Elves to exist, as his own subjects, his motivation for making the Rings of Power: to control, order, and co-ordinate Middle-earth, to avoid all that he regarded confusion and wasteful friction (to wit, anything that interfered with his plans), but most of all to impose his will upon all other sentient creatures, whether they would or no. I think his desire to dominate others led directly to Sauron’s desire to receive their worship. C.f. Gandalf the White’s description of Sauron in “The White Rider” (TT): “Wise fool.” Last edited by Alcuin : 01-09-2010 at 07:11 PM. |
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01-10-2010, 12:15 PM | #5 |
Hobbit
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Great points, Alcuin. It almost seems that Sauron 'worked' for Morgoth because they had similar ideals, rather than him actually worshipping the latter. I think, secretly, Sauron thought on his own wavelength and may have not always agreed with Morgoth's views.
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01-10-2010, 04:38 PM | #6 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Also translated as: "sophomore"
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01-13-2010, 10:28 PM | #7 |
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So, to paraphrase everything said so far,
Sauron had no use for worship, as a subject. He desired order, and when he found he could create order through influence, he thought, "why should I worship the One when I can create a new order, one that would worship me?" So, he continued to manipulate and gain power, step by step, over time. So long as the Valar did nothing (directly) to stop him, he kept on. To quote much quoted maxim: "Absolute power corrupts, absolutely." The dude couldn't help himself, reason be damned. Valandil said it so nicely: "Knowledge is one thing... wisdom another."
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01-17-2010, 08:20 PM | #8 |
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Thats some good info Alcuin.
I havent read the HoME series in quite some time but what I took from it was that Morgoth wanted to destroy everything and rebuild it his way. Sauron wanted to control and bring order to the existing world. It seemed the master and apprentice differed on a few things. I think Sauron thought his plan would work because he believed his way was right. The Valar would not directly interviene anymore so he had a pretty good chance in succeeding.
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03-25-2010, 10:02 PM | #9 |
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And, speaking of Sauron...
Happy March 25th! (Or should we just say Happy New Year? Or Happy Fourth Age Middle Earth New Year? )
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