01-18-2010, 07:44 PM | #1 |
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Lost in some mountains
Anyone want to try his or her hand at the meaning of (Galadriel speaking in The Lord of the Rings):
'He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat.' ... considering that Celeborn, at least as published by JRRT himself, is ultimately Sindarin (not Nandorin), and that according to another Tolkien-published account, after the defeat of Morgoth, Galadriel: '... passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion.' The Road Goes Ever On I'm aware that Tolkien changed his mind about the history of these two characters, but since he published both descriptions, and since he never revised the passage from The Lord of the Rings, I'm wondering how people attempt to merge the two into one internal tale. If people do, that is |
01-18-2010, 10:28 PM | #2 | |
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Well, Celeborn was a Sinda when Lord of the Rings was written; it was only in the last couple of years of Tolkien’s life that he began to try to “whitewash” Galadriel’s rebellious past. Up until then, Galadriel, desirous of lands to rule on her own, had been a leader in the Rebellion of the Noldor, but then turned on Fëanor (whom she appears to have disliked to begin with) when the Noldor sacked the harbor of Alqualondë where her grandfather Olwë was king of the Teleri. Thus the temptation of the Ring in “Mirror of Galadriel” is so powerful: it is her rejection of the temptation that redeems her: she must renounce her schemes, her dreams, her lust for power, and her desire to rule others – the want to be Great – that gets her a berth on the white ship with Gandalf.
Personally, a flawed Galadriel is much more interesting than the whitewashed version. That leaves Celeborn one of the Sindar, son of the mysterious Elmo, younger brother of Elu Thingol and Olwë. (I.e., Galadriel married her second cousin.) Celeborn has always lived in Middle-earth in the original telling, and so his desire to remain behind for while when Galadriel returned at the end of the Third Age makes much more sense; after all, for Elves, a few centuries is only a passing time. The Elvish primary intermediate time-scale was not the year, but the yén, 144 years. (Appendix D, “Calendars”) Galadriel lived in Doriath with her uncle Thingol, where she met Celeborn. Melian the Maia discovered the shadow on the Sons of Fëanor, and that some darkness covered all the Noldor that Galadriel would not disclose to her, and she warned her husband of this. Though at first he dismissed it, Thingol soon learned of the Kinslaying at Alqualondë, and Galadriel and her brothers had to leave their uncle’s kingdom. She lived for a while in Nargothrond with her brother Finrod Felagund, but when she left Beleriand is unclear. Just to be clear for those who are either unfamiliar with some other passages or have forgotten the source, “History of Galadriel and Celeborn” in Unfinished Tales begins, Quote:
Celeborn keeps migrating Westward and moving up the Elven hierarchy. In my mind’s eye, I see Galadriel in the middle telling, not the first or the last.
As an aside, I think Silmarillion indicates that Nimloth, wife of Dior Eluch*l, son of Beren and Lúthien, mother of Elwing wife of Eärendil, was Celeborn’s niece: the same “kinswoman/kinsman of…” language is used for Nimloth vis-*-vis Celeborn as for Celeborn vis-*-vis Thingol. Here’s a diagram of the confused interrelations between the descendents of Elwë, Olwë, and “tickle-me” Elmo. |
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01-18-2010, 10:57 PM | #3 |
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Nice work, miner. That's some salt!
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01-19-2010, 10:10 AM | #4 | |||||
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Thanks Alcuin! And will you take a shot at what Galadriel can mean by her statement?
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I have an admittedly imperfect 'solution' of sorts, for people to rend and tear... but first I wanted to see suggestions without that influence. Quote:
Treebeard's statement can be explained otherwise I think. And if CJRT is correct about Amroth, this statement was written before he became their son. Quote:
On a side note: I wonder if Celeborn's statement about his kinsman might be from the 'Nandorin phase', before Tolkien settled on his Sindarin heritage. Of course it must be interpreted differently even if this was the external history. Quote:
Last edited by Galin : 01-19-2010 at 02:15 PM. |
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01-20-2010, 01:52 AM | #5 | |||||
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We can also delve into the permutations of the storylines if that’s what you prefer. Or both. (Ulp! Now why do I feel like I’m walking into an abattoir? “Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death...”) -|- Ok, Quote:
My first solution to offer you is that the time Galadriel is identifying is after her last conversation with Finrod in Nargothrond, possibly immediately after Finrod left, but almost certainly before Turin arrived, because the city was destroyed shortly afterwards. Am I missing anything so far? -|- Quote:
Another question might be this: did they grow naturally in Lórien, or was that because of Galadriel and her Ring of Power, Nenya? I think they grew naturally; but if Gil-galad had trouble growing mallorn in Lindon and gave some seeds to Galadriel, who successfully grew them in Lórien, then Sam’s mallorn growing in Hobbiton, which had formerly been part of Lindon during the Second Age (being part of the territory Gil-galad ceded to Elendil upon his arrival in Middle-earth), would be a sign of blessing on Sam and the Halflings that the Hobbits could not fully appreciate. -|- How shall we call an understanding of Galadriel’s story? A “rendition”? “recension”? I think JRR and CJR Tolkien made recensions, and we make renditions (in the sense of “interpretations”). So in this rendition, Galadriel is in Lindon or Eriador when the Second Age begins. She and Celeborn have already passed over the [Blue] [M]ountains ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin, and she finds herself joined with the remaining Noldor in Lindon under the leadership of Gil-galad. Now, Galadriel is proud and ambitious: why submit to the rule of the youthful and inexperienced Gil-galad? She moves inland with best of the Noldorin craftsmen, including Celebrimbor son of Curufin son of Fëanor, greatest of the surviving Noldorin craftsmen in the Second Age. Together they found Eregion near the entrance of Khazad-dûm and begin a close and profitable alliance with the Dwarves of Durin’s Folk. Remember that Celebrimbor’s uncle, Caranthir, had a close working relationship with the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains. Also, remember that Galadriel denounced Sauron in disguise as “Annatar” to Gil-galad, saying that there had been no “Annatar” in Valinor in the train of Aulë: she must have had some association with Aulë herself, as did many of the Noldor, and that might have given her (and Celebrimbor) peculiar insight into the Dwarves. Galadriel’s hostility to Annatar made her unwelcome in Eregion once Sauron/Annatar seduced the M*rdain sometime after the beginning of the thirteenth century. I believe I recall that she passed through Khazad-dûm – perhaps the Elves began jokingly to refer to it as “Moria” in those days under the influence of “Annatar” (anything to sow a little discord between friends, right?) – and settled in Lórien. Only then would she first plant a mallorn there, and only if it grew naturally, without intervention from Nenya the Ring. If Nenya was required – I don’t think it was – then no mallorn grew until the Third Age; but I’ll bet on sometime mid-way through the Second Age on that one. -|- That completes my rendition of Galadriel’s movements from Eldamar to Beleriand to Lindon to Eregion to Lórien. Let me get my galea and scutum in place, and you can start throwing brickbat. Last edited by Alcuin : 01-20-2010 at 04:57 AM. |
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01-20-2010, 10:10 AM | #6 | ||||||
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'In this box there is earth from my orchard, and such blessing as Galadriel has still to bestow is upon it.' Lothlórien Quote:
How does one reconcile Galadriel passing over these mountains before the fall of Nargothrond, and yet after the defeat of Morgoth. Quote:
As Tolkien seems clear that Amroth is the son of Amd*r (or 'Malgalad') according to a late text, if the mallorns grow under Galadriel's power in the Second Age, thus she would be introducing the trees in Amd*r's realm... and even Amroth did not rule there until his father's death at the Last Alliance. Hmm. Last edited by Galin : 01-20-2010 at 11:00 AM. |
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01-21-2010, 12:55 AM | #7 | |||||||
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I may be a little slow to respond to an exegesis of the texts: right now, my time is being consumed in other efforts; perhaps some other ’Mooters will help us out. (Please join in! Don’t be timid! We occasionally bark at one another, but don’t bite.) I read (past tense, short e) your question as asking, How do you in your reading (“mind’s eye”) reconcile the various tellings of Galadriel’s history? A proper exegesis of the texts would include the LotR material, including the Appendices, the RGEO material (small, but important), Silmarillion, UT, and Letters, and possibly various late HoME material. It would be quite an undertaking to gather it all into one place and pick it apart. Would you give greater weight to the latest writings, as is usually the case? I would not care to do that, because in dealing with Galadriel, Tolkien seems to have violated his own cardinal rule of not changing the story presented in LotR; but of course, most of Galadriel’s history is off-stage in LotR, so perhaps he decided that it wasn’t a problem to alter it, even severely. To me, some of the alterations do considerable violence to the motivations Tolkien clearly assigned Galadriel when he wrote LotR; but of course, I am not JRR Tolkien, and this was his Niggle-tree. So what I have done – partly unconsciously at first, but more consciously over the past 10 years or so, is construct in my mind a Galadriel that suits my tastes. Picky obsessive that I am in other subjects, it sounds strange; but I find the later material on Galadriel so particularly unsatisfying that I have actively chosen to partly ignore it. The telling seems to me to be divided by how Tolkien treats Celeborn. This is a little rough, and you will probably want to correct or modify it, Galin:
As an exegesis, it’s very poor. However, I think it is defensible because it is very close to the history and motivations that Tolkien assigned to Galadriel while he wrote Lord of the Rings and afterwards, for more than 25 years from around 1942–1969. At least, that’s my comprehension of the material. (I will also admit to finding the Galadriel material unsatisfactory and therefore tedious, mainly because I know that at the end of the analysis, I personally find the result aesthetically displeasing. But it isn’t my opinion that counts: it’s Tolkien’s.) Enough about me. Back to the problem at hand: Quote:
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A fuller citation of The Road Goes Ever On, in the discussion on “Namárië”, Quote:
Are you saying the RGEO material’s order of these events is sacrosanct? I don’t think that’s the case; but I could be wrong. Quote:
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01-21-2010, 11:01 AM | #8 | |||
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That said, I don't mind opening the thread to concern the history of Galadriel and Celeborn in general, which I assumed you wanted to do before taking up my challenge of sorts. Quote:
And the reason I ask is this: Tolkien wrote a measure of conflicting unpublished material with respect to the history of these two characters -- but this is essentially draft material, where conflicting ideas are not unexpected as Tolkien was still working on his tale... ... but I've raised another animal: two descriptions published by JRRT himself. I tend to doubt Tolkien intended this as a purposed contradiction, so I think he might have applied his imagination to resolve the history on this point. Quote:
I'll say this much about The Road Goes Ever On too: in this book Tolkien is obviously considering already published text as he gives readers a bit more of Celeborn and Galadriel's history -- specifically, Artanis' lament and song in The Lord of the Rings. That may be obvious enough to say, but I'm not sure the same can be said of everything Tolkien put to paper, and his memory, especially concerning very late texts, arguably becomes an issue, and one noted by CJRT in The History of Middle-Earth series. I agree that the late version of Galadriel and Celeborn (the Teler from Aman) not only contradicts already published text, but raises problematic questions. And as I say, I too much prefer the rebel, banned Galadriel, who ultimately refuses the One. Again, apologies for any confusion I've caused. You've done a lot of work here Alcuin! but in any case I still find your posts on the larger matter interesting, and I might comment later on some things you brought up. Last edited by Galin : 01-21-2010 at 11:30 AM. |
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01-22-2010, 01:01 PM | #9 | |
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Sorry to double post! but elsewhere someone has suggested that I've made a bit of a leap when I say that The Road Goes Ever On states that: after the defeat of Morgoth Galadriel and Celeborn passed over the Eredluin. Thus, here's the passage itself...
'After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so. She passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion.' JRRT, RGEO I thought my reading was natural enough, and in any case it did not occur to me that someone might read this as not problematic when compared to Galadriel's statement in The Lord of the Rings. So there is the passage in question as published, just in case others might feel there is no real problem to begin with. ____________________ Quote:
And looking at the Elvish a bit: in The Road Goes Ever On falmalinnar is broken down as falma-li-nnar with the indication that -li means 'many'. Compare to the stem LI as it stood in the Etymologies found in The Lost Road: 'LI- many. Q. lie people; -li pl. suffix, lin- prefix=many...' Also taurelilómea in LotR Appendix F is said to mean 'Forest-many-shadowed'. Although this could be part of 'fragments of Elf-speech strung together in Ent-fashion', the implication again is that Quenya -li 'many'. Vanimálion 'of fair ones' might really mean 'of many fair ones', which would imply Treebeard is being very general here. I should add that this is one specific interpretation of -li, but that noted, Tolkien's Words, Phrases and Passages (relatively recently published in Parma Eldalamberon 17) has at least now echoed the interpretation: 'falmali 'many waves' (PE17 p. 73) 'Q. -li, i-falma-li-nna-r, the-foam wave-many-towards-pl. ending,' (PE17 p. 127) If 'many fair ones', this would hardly seem to refer to two children, if Amroth is meant; not to mention one child if he is not meant. If Last edited by Galin : 01-22-2010 at 05:30 PM. |
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01-25-2010, 08:37 AM | #10 |
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Hmm :tumbleweeds pass: ok maybe someone might like to rend and tear at my attempt... I know it's not perfect, but...
'He has dwelt in the West [Beleriand is Westerer than Lórien anyway] since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin [a very long time ago] I passed over the mountains [into Beleriand, over Ered Wethrin], and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat.' I realize for example, that if so, Galadriel passed these mountains even before the founding of these realms, which makes it a bit odd for her to put it like this -- which is why I put 'a very long time ago' after Galadriel's mention of Nargothrond and Gondolin -- meaning it might be a way to communicate the time in a very general sense. Anyway, rend as you like... or is it 'acceptable' perhaps... or do people think there's no problem with the two passages in the first place! Or does nobody care |
01-25-2010, 08:40 PM | #11 |
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Galin - I don't know... I've never tried to puzzle this one out and don't have strong feelings about it right now. I'll think on it a little more.
Alcuin - I don't think Amroth was a child of Celeborn and Galadriel. I think Treebeard's statement might be both a repetition of a general saying at the time, and may also include grandchildren among 'children'. Because then, in addition to Celebrian, C & G have further 'offspring' of Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen.
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01-26-2010, 12:35 PM | #12 | ||
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