04-30-2006, 08:21 AM | #21 | ||||
Elven Warrior
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As Olmer says, Gondor’s primary captain and heir to the Stewardship wouldn’t be sent on this errand unless it was extremely important that he go. Open war with Mordor was imminent. Earniel may be right that Boromir simply took the errand upon himself. This is the straightforward explanation from the text, and so, may be the best one. But why would Boromir be so interested in a riddling dream, which, so far as he knows, says nothing about defeating Sauron in the war which is so close at hand, interested enough to travel hundreds of miles in search of the answer, while leaving his army without his leadership? I think is possible that Denethor may have influenced Boromir here with a few well chosen words, without Boromir realizing it. Denethor was much greater than Boromir mentally. I am not sure why Denethor couldn’t have simply told Boromir what he believed the dream meant though. Quote:
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04-30-2006, 02:19 PM | #22 | |||||||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Actually, when one has a prophetic dream, the prime suspect would be a certain Maia Olorin, specialist in dreams. Gandalf left Minas-Tirith sometime in the end of February- beginning of March, as on March 23 he was already in Mirkwood (UT, Hunt for the Ring). Could he "leave" a dream to be shown later, like a slow virus? Frodo saw in a dream, how Galdalf escaped from Orthanc - that might prove that dreams could be sent at a distance. Here another dream Faramir had comes to my mind: a recurring dream of the Great Wave sweeping over Numenor. Quote:
Evidently, Gandalf had chosen Faramir as a pupil long ago - perhaps he had a "feeling" that one day Faramir would have to make a Choice about the Ring. So he prepared the boy, ensuring that he becomes what was called "Faithful", and knew that disobedience to the Powers was perilous. I believe, Faramir was prepared much in the same way as Aragorn was. Gandalf evidently didn't tell him about the One, but it seems he must have told Faramir some nazgul stories, to make him wary of the Rings in general. Remember, Faramir had the "classified" info (missing even from the Chronicles and records of Gondor and Rivendell), that three of the Nine were Numenorean Lords. Gandalf must have told Faramir about them, making sure that Faramir wouldn't be tempted by a Ring - and he was right, only instead of the prepared Faramir, it was the totally unprepared Boromir who came to Rivendell. Poor innocent guy who never heard about Rings, about the nazgul, and couldn't even recognise the Morgul Lord when he saw him! Quote:
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04-30-2006, 05:51 PM | #23 | ||
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05-01-2006, 06:33 PM | #24 | |||||
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05-02-2006, 05:23 AM | #25 | ||
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05-02-2006, 06:37 PM | #26 | ||
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05-02-2006, 06:42 PM | #27 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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But it couldn't be via the Ring - otherwise the message would have come only to Frodo. |
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05-25-2006, 03:21 PM | #28 | |
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02-20-2009, 10:13 PM | #29 |
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We are all forgetting that Pippin told Beregond that Aragorn was the only one of the Company who really knew Gandalf. When Beregond asked for more information, Pippin played it as, “He was a man who went about with us.” The next day, Denethor teased Pippin about the short rations in the City, and Pippin realized Beregond had reported everything he had said in their conversation. And after Denethor questioned Pippin at their first meeting, Gandalf pointed out that Pippin was unable to hide that someone with a famous sword was coming, and that Boromir was not the leader of the Company after Moria.
Denethor and Aragorn had known one another as young men when Aragorn served his father, Ecthelion II, under the name Thorongil. Appendix A suggests that Denethor had been able even then to determine who Aragorn was, and that he was jealous. (After all, Denethor could never be king himself, “just” steward.) Denethor knew who was in Rohan by name and title by the time Pippin showed up to serve the next morning, when he teased him about the rations. Sauron’s must be careful to hide from Denethor what he knows about Aragorn. For one thing, Sauron did not know his name. (Aragorn did not “speak” to him: he threatened him with Narsil-Andúril and then wrenched the palant*r to his own use.) For another two, the Sword-that-was-Broken was in the dream-rhyme, and Sauron would want to conceal anything that might give Denethor hope; and the coming of the Heir of Isildur would have given Denethor hope were he not consumed with jealousy. I think Sauron showed him the fleet and the armies marshaled against Gondor, and Denethor feared that Sauron had read from his mind what he knew about Frodo’s quest and used it to regain the One Ring. Since Sauron believed either Aragorn or Gandalf had the Ring, he knew that Denethor did not. So he must have been bluffing Denethor in order to weaken his will to fight before Aragorn could arrive. Think about it: After their confrontation, Sauron knew Aragorn was in the Hornburg. He had to strike before the Heir of Isildur could reach Minas Tirith. All the more because he believed Aragorn had the Ruling Ring. Last edited by Alcuin : 02-20-2009 at 10:19 PM. |
02-21-2009, 09:27 AM | #30 | ||
Elven Warrior
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I agree and disagree with you here, Alcuin.
Of course you are right that Denethor was already aware of Aragorn (aka: Thorongil, the leader of Pippin and Boromir's company after Moria, Heir of Isildur). What was interesting about The Gaffer's suggestion wasn't the thought that Denethor may learned about Aragorn from Sauron. Rather, it was the idea that Sauron (who was almost surely unaware of Denethor's knowledge concerning Aragorn) may have intended to use this information to further weaken Denethor, and through him, Gondor. Quote:
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