04-18-2008, 09:03 AM | #21 |
Elf Lord
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It's the Silm forum. We can go with six. And while we're at it, lets go with Gil-galad as the son of Fingon.
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04-18-2008, 03:59 PM | #22 |
The Ñoldóran
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No can do. He's Orodreth's.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
04-18-2008, 10:51 PM | #23 |
Elf Lord
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<whining>But I don't *like* Orodreth!</whining>
Honestly, the dude was weak. Think of how happy you were to see him taking charge when Finrod left. Why? Because he's a loser. Couldn't hold Minas Tirith against Sauron. Couldn't hold Nargothrond against anyone, least of all you and your brother. Then one of the slayers of Sauron is his son? Not that sons are always like their fathers but there is almost no resemblance between Orodreth and Gil-galad. They hardly even seem like cousins, regardless of the times removed. In fact, I'm not sure Orodreth is even Noldor. I think he was possibly adopted by Finrod in some sort of First-age big brother program.
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04-19-2008, 02:07 AM | #24 |
The Ñoldóran
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Finarfin, you mean?
Finrod doesn't have any kids. No, I don't like him either, but he sure would have done a lot better if not for Túrin.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
04-19-2008, 04:49 AM | #25 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Gil-Galad can't be Fingon's son, because he would then become King after Finrod, never Fingon's nephew Orodreth.
By the way, I don't like GG at all. It was just mean how he used the Numenoreans back in SA 1700, keeping them in the dark about the Rings. And he was whining for help long before that (see Aldarion and Erendis). He was too weak to rule the Noldor in the Second age: he was High King, he could have prevented the Mirdain from befriending Annatar and chasing away Galadriel. But like his father Orodreth, he let the rebels be. All the guy managed to achieve was to die valiantly. |
04-19-2008, 02:21 PM | #26 | ||
Chaotic Good
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Quote:
Once retrieving the Silmarilli wouldn't necessarily have involved an impossibly crazy plan, they went for it. Makes sense. Quote:
Sorry. Just found that hilarious. Poor Orodreth.
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04-20-2008, 12:38 PM | #27 |
Elf Lord
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No, I mean Finrod. They're brothers, right?
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04-20-2008, 02:21 PM | #28 |
The Ñoldóran
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Oh, yes, I see what you meant. Misread your post. Sorry!
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
02-16-2009, 04:57 PM | #29 | |
Hobbit
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Quote:
But yeah, that was such a minor, unimportant event in the Silmarillion that I can see how it slipped your mind. |
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02-16-2009, 05:25 PM | #30 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Quote:
Sorry, but I don't see how their previous valiance in battle justifies or excuses the slaughter they purpetrated afterwards.
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02-16-2009, 05:57 PM | #31 |
Hobbit
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^but what you asked was "Did they go after the other two Silmarils when Lúthien and Beren proved reclaiming them by stealth was possible?"
The answer is "Yes, they did." |
02-16-2009, 06:28 PM | #32 | |
Hobbit
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Quote:
You can call them Evil, Cruel, Murderer, and Kinslayer to your heart's content, but Oathbreaker is a name I won't take from you. Not after all they suffered to keep that stupid oath And I don't think Coward is a fair name either. Tolkien himself said that all the children of Finwe were fearless and hardy of heart. Celegorm and Curufin's problem was their perception of what was and wasn't worth their valour. |
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02-16-2009, 07:57 PM | #33 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Yet the sons of Fëanor did proudly and threateningly demand the silmaril back from Doriath before going into that last battle. This less than tactful demand cost them pretty much all aid from Doriath. But I'll concede that Thingol was as much at fault here as the Fëanorians.
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02-17-2009, 08:18 PM | #34 |
Deus Ex Machina
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I suspect they were just as unlikely to get any aid from Doriath whether they made that demand or not, thanks to Celegorm and Curufin's actions. Same reason they didn't get full support from Nargothrond. Which does make one wonder: Maedhros had been sneakier about it and named the alliance after Fingon and had him extend the invitation to join it, would there have been as much resistance from Doriath and Nargothrond?
Don't forget though that it was the combined treachery from the men and broken timing resulting from Maedhros' forces being delayed and Gwindor being goaded into charging early that ultimately cost them the battle. If we're looking at issues of cowardice and failure to confront Morgoth, the Nirnaeth really is the key turning point to be looking at. It's the big attempt by a unified Noldo force to actually fulfill the oath and it comes very close. Morgoth also suffered huge losses in that battle. Afterwards, however, it seems like everybody loses interest in any offensive actions against the real enemy. There was a really interesting tid-bit, and I forget where I read it, so it was probably just creative extrapolation, saying that the message Tuor carried for Ulmo wasn't just a warning to evacuate, but a cue to attack Morgoth now, before he can fully rebuild his forces. If that were the case, and had they acted immediately, it might have been enough to prevent the Sack of Nargothrond and could have weakend Morgoth significantly.
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
02-18-2009, 09:54 AM | #35 |
Hobbit
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^sounds very extrapolated to me. Gondolin alone couldn't have done much more than go out with a bang if they'd attacked. Angband was too strong to be overthrown by the Noldor. And it wasn't their doom to take Morgoth out anyway. It definately doesn't sound like advice Ulmo would give. "The true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and comes from the sea" remember. If Ulmo had wanted them to attack Morgoth he would have said so.
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