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01-30-2009, 05:17 AM | #21 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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And Welcome to the Moot, Valarauko! |
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01-31-2009, 03:16 PM | #22 | |
Princess of the Noldor (and Administrative Empress of the Lone Islands)
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I would think that First Age Quenya would need a LOT of modification to become something looking like the language on the One Ring, though.
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02-03-2009, 06:01 AM | #23 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Nashua, New Hampshire
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The similarities are mainly in the vowels. So far as I can tell, in the first movie Gandalf pronounces everything perfectly in Elven, right down to the word "Mellon" (pronounced Mel-Lawn or something quite close to that), and when speaks (as Elrond says "in the black speech") the ring rhyme in Rivendell the vowels sound just like they do in Quenya. Right down to the u's being pronounced like they are in the English "put" rather than "brute" as a short "u" should be. Now, granted, the rhyme uses a slightly different spelling, especially for the "k" sound, but early Quenya used a "k" for that sound. Only in the third age was it spelled "c" but even at that a "c" is always pronounced like a "k" in Quenya. In addition, I will admit that the stress on the syllables is slightly off, but that could easily be Morgoth's version of Quenya, modified to sound more overpowering and intimidating.
For example, "Ash nazg, durbatuluk" or "One Ring to rule them all" "Ash" in third age quenya would be spelled "ahy" because the "hy" is pronounced like the German "ch" as in "ich" which some Human speakers would pronounce "sh". This is thus an easy way to see how Morgoth could corrupt the language. In addition, if you look at the word "nazg" and compare to the Elven "Nazgul" They are pronounced EXACTLY alike in the movie by Aragorn and Gandalf. These two are actually the best at pronouncing Elven according to several sources so we can generally assume that they know what they're saying. Also, if you look at: http://khallandra.tripod.com/sindarin/classes.htm in the alphabet of Tengwar, it would appear that the script used is quite strangely, the exact same alphabet as all Elven language. Granted, I am not a master of Sindarin or Quenya, But from the studies I have done on it, it would seem that Morgoth pulled a fast one on the Elves with this. To be honest, I would do the same thing. Why wast your time making your own language when you can corrupt the beautiful and elegant language of your hated foe into something for them to be scared of? Does this make sense to you guys? I can come up with a couple of other examples if you'd like. These were just the easiest to explain. |
02-04-2009, 02:55 PM | #24 | ||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
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Hmm... sounds very interesting. Yet I have some doubts.
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You see, I am not a language expert - not even close - so I may be totally wrong. However, I heard Quenia was based on Finnish. The BS, some experts say, is very close to ancient Hittite. As Finnish is hardly related to Hittite ...well you understand. |
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02-04-2009, 04:30 PM | #25 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
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I know next to nothing about Quenya, but I know enough German to known that the German 'ch' as in 'ich' is never pronounced 'sh'.
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02-05-2009, 11:29 AM | #26 | ||||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 222
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One Quenya word for 'ring' is corma, but in Vinyar Tengwar 17 Carl Hostetter suggests that BS nazg was a possibe developement of Quenya natse 'web, net' from a root NAT- (itself related to root NUT- 'tie bind'). I won't set out the argument here, but I will note that Mr. Hostetter does not see a necessary contradiction between his suggestion and Tolkien's comments in the letter to Mr. Rang (letter 297). To try and keep things distinct, this is the Black Speech developed by Sauron in the Second Age, while the thread (initially anyway) concerns an earlier time. Quote:
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In the Narn we find the word Golug, an Orc-name for the Noldor, which could be a corruption of Sindarin Golodh (or so some have suggested at least). I think it's interesting that according to the text Quendi And Eldar the Sindarin form Golodh itself 'seems to have been phonetically unpleasing to the Noldor', so that the Noldor using Sindarin did not use this term, and it fell out of use among those friendly to them. The essay Quendi And Eldar is from The War of the Jewels. Last edited by Galin : 02-05-2009 at 12:30 PM. |
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02-05-2009, 03:42 PM | #27 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
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Hi, Galin! Great to have an expert on languages here.
I have a question for you, as we were already discussung the word "nazgûl" Here is what I've posted on another forum: Quote:
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And anyway there seems to be a similarity with Sindarin - "Gûl" with "Sorcery" (Morgûl, Gûldur) and "ûl" with "Ulairi"... Perhaps you could explain this? Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 02-05-2009 at 03:44 PM. |
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02-05-2009, 05:48 PM | #28 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 222
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I'm not an expert but JRRT has revealed that the BS word is gûl 'wraith'.
Tolkien seems to variously write (PE17) that the BS word is derived from Sindarin (where the Quenya form is ñúle). In another entry he writes that the word probably derives from Elvish ñgól- (Q. ñóle appears here). And in a third entry he writes again that the BS word probably derives from Sindarin gûl 'black arts, sorcery' (Q. ñúle again). Derived from Elvish in any case, and leaning towards Grey-elven it seems. |
02-05-2009, 08:25 PM | #29 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Nashua, New Hampshire
Posts: 48
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Thank you both for pointing out the problem with Nazgul. I might ammend the statement to be in accordance with a better example of it that Galin posted. The words Ulairi and Nazgul could easily be closely related. Remember that Sindarin was simply the language of the Elves that did not travel to Valinor. Quenya was the language of the Lords of the Noldor. Also, to be fair, no the German "ich" is never pronounced "ish" in German. But English speakers, and in the case of LotR the Men of Westernesse, have a tendency to pronounce this "ish" such as "church". I'm just putting out there that this would be easy to corrupt this way as Morgoth/Sauron had many servants that were men of middle-earth. And simply for the sake of argument, are we sure yet whether the black speech was made by Morgoth or Sauron? there are references for both.
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02-06-2009, 03:44 AM | #30 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
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What about "Ulairi"? Does the "ûl" part come from "gûl" - 'black arts, sorcery' and what does the "airi" part mean in your opinion? Quote:
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02-06-2009, 01:30 PM | #31 | ||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 222
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Last edited by Galin : 02-06-2009 at 06:00 PM. |
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02-06-2009, 03:42 PM | #32 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
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Thank you again, Galin.
Reading posts like that of Stanley Friesen makes me wish to bow in wonder and awe. |
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