Narya - a gift for Annatar?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

The Elves probably placed greater value on beautifying the world vs military type strength as opposed to Men. Considering the history of the rings then, it only makes sense that they were originally intended (by the Elves, at least) for more peaceful things and later changed by Sauron when he decided to give the rings to Men. In other words the (for the Elves, supposedly at least) near pacifist-type rings were likely "twisted" by Sauron after he recovered them to better suit his purposes with Men and also to better suit the purposes of the Men who would hold them.

I think Elves also placed great value on the devices that helped to keep intruders out (the Girdle of Melian, the secrecy of Gondolin and Nargothrond etc.). No, not offensive weapons meant for conquest - in this I agree with you. But you mentioned yourself the Flood of Bruinen made by Vilya. So even the "most pacifist" of the 19 had some possibilities to be used in warfare.
My hypothesis is that the 9 were supposed to be used in defense, the 7 for craft and the 3 for beautifying and healing of the land. The fact that the weakest rings were for warfare and the strongest for healing, reflected the Mirdain's priorities.

I don't recall Alcuin's argument, so I am hesitant to challenge it (he is Alcuin after all), but if it implies that the other rings were controlled by the One without a specific mechanism for this having been built into them, then I must strongly disagree. This is what they were made for.

I can't speak for Alcuin, but I think that all the Rings were built on the same principle - like electricity or magnetism, thus the One Ring built on the same principle was able to control them.

I think the powers of the rings for communication between each other was closely related to this control mechanism, and I doubt that this communication was simply a byproduct of being a Morgul device.

That would be Osanwe. The Rings were Osanwe devices and there surely existed a direct communication between the One and the other Rings - that's how the Elves heard Sauron's Ring-spell, that's how Sauron brainwashed the nazgul, that's what happened with Frodo at Amon Hen, when he "heard" both Sauron and Gandalf. Whether the Osanwe contact between the 19 rings was also possible, I don't know. Maybe yes. There is always a question how the Wise and Sauron knew that exactly 4 of the 7 had been destroyed. Likely they simply "felt" their absence, likely the whole "chain" of the Rings had been weakened.

The situation in the Morgul vale is one I haven't thought of before. This could certainly be evidence that the nine possessed powers similar to (though less than) the three, but that these powers had likely been twisted by Sauron.

Not necessarily the powers were twisted, more likely the minds of the nazgul had become twisted to see beauty in evil-looking, tortured statues and to find the charnel-smell of the pale flowers pleasing.

By the way, CAB, if you were right, and the nazgul had already lost their Rings to Sauron by TA 2000, then the phenomenon of the Morgul Vale was made without the presence of the Nine Rings.

Sure the powers of the Nine rings seem to have passed into nazgul themselves to some extent... suggesting by the way that there was some spiritual component in them, coming both from Sauron and the Elves. Maybe over time, parts of the nazgul fëar passed into the Rings, being substituted by what was contained in the Rings from the start. Thus a bond was formed between a nazgul and his Ring, assuring a "primary control of his will" by Sauron (who held the Nine) and also keeping the wraith in ME, even after his body had been slain.

The idea that the Mirdain placed a portion of their souls into the rings is an interesting one. It also helps explain your original position that both the seven and nine were intended for only the Mirdain themselves. I see some problems with this view, though. The bodily existence of both Sauron and the Nazgul seems to have been tied to their rings, yet this doesn't seem to be true for the Mirdain.

You sure? Celebrimbor had not destroyed the Rings - maybe he would have died if he did and his damaged fea would never be rehoused? Also maybe the Houseless Celebrimbor and the other houseless Mirdain were hanging around Eregion for all the Third Age - unless they were used by Sauron for something, like guarding Barrows or serving as silent Watchers? I guess a nazgul wearing one of the Nine would have complete control over the fea of the Mirdan who had made his ring.

Also, what about the three rings? I think we agree that two of these had to be intended for people other than those (or "he") who created them. They were the most powerful of the twenty rings, so if this power came primarily from Elvish souls, then this means that someone contributed a larger portion of his soul to a ring not intended for himself than other members of the Mirdain did for rings they themselves were to keep. Unless, that is, we start talking about multiple Elves placing parts of themselves into individual rings. Would they all do that for Galadriel after they had sent her packing? Edit: Of course if this power didn't come from Elvish souls, then where did it come from? It clearly wasn't all Sauron's power.

Good question. I think the power of the Three only came from Celbrimbor's soul - that's why I believe he made the other two rings for persons very dear to him, not for some unspecified Elven Lords, like Gil-Galad, Cirdan or Amroth. Such persons could only be Galadriel and Annatar.

I guess the crafting of the Three had drained Celebrimbor immensely. Originally he planned to wear the strongest Ring, where the largest part of his fea was contained, so he would be OK. But when he parted with the Three, there was but an empty shell left of him, virtually. I guess there was little left to rehouse when he finally came to Valinor - and maybe the remnants of his fea haunted Lorien and Rivendell throughout the Third Age.

I suppose I am getting a bit too much off subject here, but reading that thread brought a question to mind. Delaying the Elves' fading in Middle Earth was against Eru's design. Why was it ok in Valinor? I'm pretty sure I read before that the creation of Valinor was itself a mistake. It certainly wasn't part of the original layout of the earth. Does this mean that most of the Elves (according to Eru's design) were supposed to have faded / be fading by the end of the Third Age? Or am I (most likely) forgetting / misunderstanding something?

I don't know the answer, CAB. Maybe if you open a new thread, someone may come up with a good idea.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think Elves also placed great value on the devices that helped to keep intruders out (the Girdle of Melian, the secrecy of Gondolin and Nargothrond etc.). No, not offensive weapons meant for conquest - in this I agree with you. But you mentioned yourself the Flood of Bruinen made by Vilya. So even the "most pacifist" of the 19 had some possibilities to be used in warfare.

I think this is a very reasonable point of view. I still don't agree with the nine being originally intended primarily for defense, but I certainly wouldn't argue that is unreasonable to believe that they were.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Not necessarily the powers were twisted, more likely the minds of the nazgul had become twisted to see beauty in evil-looking, tortured statues and to find the charnel-smell of the pale flowers pleasing.

Also very reasonable. Of course, it could have been due to twisting of either the rings, the Nazgul, both, or even some unrelated power. I think I would vote for the "both" option as being the most likely.

Originally Posted by Gordis

By the way, CAB, if you were right, and the nazgul had already lost their Rings to Sauron by TA 2000, then the phenomenon of the Morgul Vale was made without the presence of the Nine Rings.

Another oversight! Still, though the rings themselves weren't present, as you say, some of their power surely was. Something had to be causing the situation Morgul Vale and, though I hadn't considered it before, I would now say that the power of the nine rings is the obvious first (no, not only) choice.

Originally Posted by Gordis

You sure? Celebrimbor had not destroyed the Rings - maybe he would have died if he did and his damaged fea would never be rehoused? Also maybe the Houseless Celebrimbor and the other houseless Mirdain were hanging around Eregion for all the Third Age - unless they were used by Sauron for something, like guarding Barrows or serving as silent Watchers? I guess a nazgul wearing one of the Nine would have complete control over the fea of the Mirdan who had made his ring.

I thought you might suggest this. I agree. This is a very interesting (and creepy) possibility.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Good question. I think the power of the Three only came from Celbrimbor's soul - that's why I believe he made the other two rings for persons very dear to him, not for some unspecified Elven Lords, like Gil-Galad, Cirdan or Amroth. Such persons could only be Galadriel and Annatar.

I guess the crafting of the Three had drained Celebrimbor immensely. Originally he planned to wear the strongest Ring, where the largest part of his fea was contained, so he would be OK. But when he parted with the Three, there was but an empty shell left of him, virtually. I guess there was little left to rehouse when he finally came to Valinor - and maybe the remnants of his fea haunted Lorien and Rivendell throughout the Third Age.

Let me clarify my position a little bit. Though there are problems with this view, I agree that the power of the 19 rings almost certainly came primarily from Elvish souls. What other good options are there? Why else would Sauron use the Elves to make the rings? Wouldn't it have been simpler, if possible, for him to make the rings himself (free of any unneeded or unfavorable Elvish input) and distribute them only to those whom he wished to ensnare? I just think that the theory needs some refinement.

I must admit, thinking along these lines does make me start to wonder if all the seven and nine were intended only for the Mirdain (as we discussed earlier). Maybe Sauron's ultimate plans regarding the rings really was Elf vs Elf conflict. He was known to cause fighting among those who should have been united against him on other occasions.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

I still don't agree with the nine being originally intended primarily for defense, but I certainly wouldn't argue that is unreasonable to believe that they were.

No, I didn't mean "primarily" - sorry if I wasn't clear enough. Primarily all the rings were designed for preservation and healing. The Nine had enough power to prolong the "unfaded" lives of individual Elves and thus the existence of Men indefinitely, which none of the Lesser Rings could. Also primary powers of the Nine permitted their wielders to enter the Spirit World.

But apart from the primary powers, I believe, all of the Great Rings had secondary, powers which we have been discussing. An example of one such secondary power of the One Ring was understanding of languages - likely mirrored in some (or all) of the 19. Fighting skills, shield for the wielder, knowledge of smith-craft, sense for hidden gold and jewels may be other secondary powers.

Something had to be causing the situation Morgul Vale and, though I hadn't considered it before, I would now say that the power of the nine rings is the obvious first (no, not only) choice.

I guess Morgul Vale was an example of artificially (magically) wrought wraith-friendly environment (like Lorien was Elf-friendly environment). Both groups of beings had a common goal - to live through long centuries without suffering from boredom.

Let me clarify my position a little bit. Though there are problems with this view, I agree that the power of the 19 rings almost certainly came primarily from Elvish souls. What other good options are there? Why else would Sauron use the Elves to make the rings? Wouldn't it have been simpler, if possible, for him to make the rings himself (free of any unneeded or unfavorable Elvish input) and distribute them only to those whom he wished to ensnare? I just think that the theory needs some refinement.

I think the principle of the Rings we were talking about (which I have compared to electricity or magnetism) was a Morgul know-how of pouring a part of one's soul into an object. Likely the Nine had more of Sauron in them than of the Elves, as the latter were only learning the technique, the Seven had more Elf-component, less of Sauron, while the Three were entirely Elvish.

Maybe the whole 9+7+3 scheme was not agreed upon from the start: the collaborators first made the 9 (a Ring for seven Mirdain + one for Celebrimbor + one for Annatar), then decided that they could now do better than that and made the other Rings. Each Mirdan under the supervision of Annatar made his own Ring (with a huge chunk of his soul) and Celebrimbor later made the Three all alone. As the Nine contained very little of Elvish souls, their possessors exchanged them for one of the Seven without much regrets. So did Celebrimbor - he took one of the Three. That's how the Nine were found unused in 1697.

And the Dwarves who got the Rings were likely beset by Houseless fear of the previous owners... Maybe that's why Gimli was so afraid of ghosts?

Originally Posted by CAB

I must admit, thinking along these lines does make me start to wonder if all the seven and nine were intended only for the Mirdain (as we discussed earlier). Maybe Sauron's ultimate plans regarding the rings really was Elf vs Elf conflict. He was known to cause fighting among those who should have been united against him on other occasions.

I agree. Perhaps Sauron was not intending to help the Mirdain to defend Eregion and their Rings from the other Elves - thus the rings would naturally find their way to the strongest of the remaining Elves and those in the highest position. Also the Elves who got the Rings by killing their kin would be far more vulnerable to his nefarious influence (as Gollum was vs. Bilbo and Frodo).

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

No, I didn't mean "primarily" - sorry if I wasn't clear enough. Primarily all the rings were designed for preservation and healing.

Ahh, I did misunderstand you. If we are talking about lesser powers of the rings then I am much more inclined to agree with you.

Originally Posted by Gordis

And the Dwarves who got the Rings were likely beset by Houseless fear of the previous owners... Maybe that's why Gimli was so afraid of ghosts?

You joke, but that is a pretty good idea. And maybe the smarter Mirdain were the ones that convinced dragons to destroy the rings that they had created…..


then again, maybe not.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

You joke, but that is a pretty good idea. And maybe the smarter Mirdain were the ones that convinced dragons to destroy the rings that they had created…..
then again, maybe not.

Good idea too.
But really, when Sauron puts a lot of his power and will (a great part of his fea) into a Ring, he becomes bound to it. Sure it has to be the same for Elves: the Seven Mirdain had to be bound to the Seven Rings in the same way as the ringless nazgul were bound to the Nine - unable to leave ME even after death.
No wonder if they would devise some plan to free themselves. Being Houseless, they could have no real interaction with the physical world: couldn't attack the Dwarves themselves. So, pointing to a greedy Dragon a Dwarven hoard to plunder would be a brilliant idea.

[Vidugavia]

Wonderful theory Gordis! Cirdain gift of Narya to Gandalf, Saurons great enemy, gets a deeper meaning with this perspective. Celebrimbors gift is turned into a weapon against his treacherous friend. I wonder if Cirdain might have known this?

[Gordis]

Thank you for your kind words, Vidugavia

Originally Posted by Vidugavia

Cirdain gift of Narya to Gandalf, Saurons great enemy, gets a deeper meaning with this perspective. Celebrimbors gift is turned into a weapon against his treacherous friend. I wonder if Cirdain might have known this?

Possibly he did. We know Cirdan didn't use the Ring himself for some reason.
It looks like Narya helped Gandalf to become what Celebrimbor saw in Annatar, what he wanted Annatar to be: the kindler of hearts, the trusted advisor of the remaining Elves, the leader of resistance against Evil.