07-02-2008, 12:57 PM | #1 |
Elf Lady
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Theology IV
Fourth thread, and the debate can continue.
The topic, as before, is religion. Original thread starter was Ruinel. The previous threads were Real debate thread for religion, Theological opinions, part II and Theology III. Let us enjoy some more polite exchanging of thoughts on religion here
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07-02-2008, 04:09 PM | #2 | ||
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Don't forget Rian's "Why you believe what you believe" thread, which does not appear to exist anymore.
I've closed the old thread. Let me know if you want any posts from that thread moved over here.
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07-02-2008, 04:20 PM | #3 |
Elven Warrior
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so Chap you wanted a few verse here yeah go....theres a verity.
mat. 12:46-50 and if i knew where to look I'd give you more but i usually just stuble on things. The reason Jesus is not stated in the "for all have sinned..." is because it says over and over in the bible that He has not sinned so why would they need to say it again. You keep on coming back to Adam and eve but they were not born they were created from the dirt and breath of life they were the first to sin so of course they did not have original sin as you call it for they were where it started. Mary I really don't know how to explain this anymore I've been clear with this and you must open your eyes Bro she was great yes, Mother of Jesus yes mother of the God head itself no because the God head was allready made and if Jesus did not have to be born to be human then she wouldn't have been in the picture...maybe not sure...but He was told to be born to a virgin of the david blood line so Mary fit both and found favor in the eyes of God and was chosen to have our savior. She was not sinless bro she was human and I don't mean both human and God like Jesus and she had a birth unlike Adam and eve that had sin in the birth....theres no more I can say bro you ether believe it or not thus not making it any less true..... as for prying to Mary why? the only way to God is through Jesus not Mary and that is said many times in the bible over and over.The ghosts (can't spell the other word) you are showing us, how do you know its real? Did you see close up how do you know it was not a illusion made by human or Satan for that matter.....sorry Bro I see no reason in Mary to come and walk around and float....do you honestly see a reason for God to have that happen? God does not do things to show off and thats what I think that was so I do not think that is the work of God.
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07-02-2008, 04:30 PM | #4 | ||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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And it came about that Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. And she cried out with a loud voice, and said, "Blessed among women are you, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" [Luke 1:41-43; NASB] I am assuming that "my Lord" in this context refers to Christ; if it does, then the Holy Spirit has spoken, the case is closed. Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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07-02-2008, 06:47 PM | #5 | ||||||||||
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The idea that He isn't mentioned only because his sinlessness is referred to in other parts of the Bible is one possibility, but there could be plenty of other reasons. For instance, it could be (similarly) that His perfection was broadly accepted by the early Christians, so they didn't bother mentioning it. And it's possible Mary's perfection was likewise broadly accepted and so not mentioned for the same reason. Or maybe they just purposely were making a generally true statement and weren't bothering with exceptions to the rule. For instance, Jesus said sometimes, "whoever believes and is baptized will be saved." Does that mean that no one who isn't baptized will be saved? No . . . there are exceptions. There are many other passages where it makes broad statements, but there are exceptions it doesn't mention, because it's just talking about the general truth, not every single detail. Quote:
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The entire Protestant belief system on Mary being sinful is one interpretation of the Bible, but interpretations coming to the opposite conclusion make just as much sense in view of what the Bible says on the matter. The Protestant perspective here is really personal opinion and tradition dating back five hundred years or so. Since the Bible doesn't have much to say on the matter, and we are in the realm of human traditions, why go with the tradition dating back only 500 or so years rather than the one dating 2,000 years back, to the very dawn of Christianity? If the early Christians, those who knew the apostles and were their friends and companions, and their successors, all the original teachers of Christianity, if they believed that Mary was sinless, doesn't it make sense to pay more attention to their view than to views invented over a thousand years later? Because they were closer to the events that had happened. They knew more about Mary, because she had passed away more recently. Quote:
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Unlikely. The apparition resulted in vast numbers of people converting to Christianity. That doesn't seem like something the Devil would find useful. Quote:
The Copts have given an explanation too- I don't know exactly what it is, as I haven't researched that point. And if it doesn't seem like God because it's too big a display of power, I can mention all kinds of incidents in the Bible where God unleashed power in a public display. This falls right in line with those. I think I'll add at this point that the Early Church really did see Mary as sinless. Their writings call her the "second Eve," repeatedly, and in the 4th century there are writings calling her completely pure and "spotless," "immaculate." That dates from very, very early in Church history. Not to mention that the glorious image of Mary in Revelation 12 comes straight from the Bible. As Gwaimir pointed out, if the child who was snatched up to be with God and who would rule the nations with an iron scepter was Jesus (and virtually all Protestants agree that that's true), then the one who gave birth to the Christ-child in the vision would logically be his mother. The Messianic community or the Church are alternate explanations that also work, but interpreted literally, it would refer to his physical mother, Mary.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 07-02-2008 at 06:54 PM. |
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07-02-2008, 07:06 PM | #6 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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What's more, who are those who are his mother and brothers? Those who hear the Word of God and obey it. Sounds like, "Behold the handmaiden of the Lord; be it done unto me according to thy word." By that definition, sure SOUNDS like she's his mother....
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
07-02-2008, 07:35 PM | #7 | |||
Elf Lord
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Guys, you might like this article about the Early Church's claims about Mary. You'd like it anyway, Gwaimir . And you might at least find it interesting, Azrael! It has several interesting sections of available information from the beliefs of the first two centuries of Christians about the Virgin Mary. Here's how it begins (I didn't know this part, so I found it particularly interesting: Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 07-02-2008 at 07:36 PM. |
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07-02-2008, 08:14 PM | #8 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Indeed. The very earliest Fathers, really, who made any attempt at a whole account of Christianity, proclaim the glorious mystery of the Virgin. I think perhaps an even better argument for Marian devotion is the effects it has on a civilization, as mentioned in your article.
Also, there is this: We have a Father in God, but without the Virgin, where is a mother? What family is complete lacking that?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
07-02-2008, 08:29 PM | #9 | ||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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07-03-2008, 03:47 AM | #10 | |
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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07-03-2008, 03:52 AM | #11 |
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As for the sick being cured and the blind being able to see, I'm reminded of Emile Zola's reply at being shown the pile of crutches of those cured of lameness at Lourdes,
"And where do they keep the piles of wooden legs?"
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 07-03-2008 at 04:04 AM. |
07-03-2008, 08:37 AM | #12 | |
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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07-03-2008, 11:42 AM | #13 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Well, when the son and the consort are the same thing, it gets a bit confusing...
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
07-03-2008, 12:09 PM | #14 | ||
Elf Lord
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Your argument is rather similar to one Coffeehouse was posing earlier. He said that an apparition of the Virgin Mary shining with light and hovering in the sky, surrounded by angels and doves and stars forming circles around her, with white smoke smelling of incense rising from the Earth, in the dead of night without any explanation the police could find after an extensive search, seen by millions of people including the international press (who photographed and documented what they saw) and the president of Egypt, wasn't enough, because if God really wanted to prove himself, he could have done something even bigger! That's true of anything. Anything "could be bigger." But that's irrelevant. It doesn't mean what exists is not stupendous. There are actually accounts in Christian history of people with wooden legs getting their leg restored. I can also give you a well documented account where a child born with two heads (one dead and slimy) had the bad one shrink and disappear through the power of prayer. My grandmother has seen with her own eyes people with legs of differing lengths experience miracles because of prayer. She saw the extra short or long legs shrinking or growing longer before her eyes to match the normal-length ones.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 07-03-2008 at 12:19 PM. |
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07-03-2008, 12:50 PM | #15 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Or, it could refer to conversion of life. Probably some of both went on.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
07-03-2008, 01:12 PM | #16 | |
Elf Lord
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What's that?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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07-03-2008, 01:33 PM | #17 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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What does it mean to convert? To turn to something. Basically, it means turning one's life towards Christ, or more towards Christ, even if one is already a Christian.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
07-03-2008, 01:37 PM | #18 |
Elf Lord
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Oh, I see. I'm sure a lot of that happened too, but when these various sites and articles use the word "convert," about the people at Zeitoun, it undoubtedly means they've converted from other faiths or non-faiths to Christianity. That is the normal meaning. I never even had heard of the other meaning for "convert" (derived from the root) before you just explained it to me.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 07-03-2008 at 01:40 PM. |
07-03-2008, 01:50 PM | #19 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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It's used that way in Scripture: "Repent, and be converted". It's a pretty common phrase. Popes call people to it a lot.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
07-03-2008, 01:53 PM | #20 |
Elf Lord
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I can see how using the term that way makes sense, in view of the word root. I'm just saying I don't think it's commonly used that way. At least not where I come from or in any of the articles I've ever read .
The popes and Sacred Scripture are perfectly entitled to use the broader meaning, of course. As I said, that makes sense in view of the word root.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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