Autism

[Arien the Maia]

I hope this thread doesn't come back to bite me in the butt! BUT....what do you guys think...is it overdiagnosed these days? I'm am not meaning any disrespect to those who have loved ones diagnosed with Autism. I agree that it is very real...however I wonder if alot of the kids diagnosed these days are simply just introverted and quirky? my son is one...I am one....I have NO doubt that had I been born within the past few years that I would be diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome. I have many of the symptoms....however I have never had any sort of therapy and I function fine in society albeit in my own way. Yes I am severely introverted and I am darn proud of it!

[Mari]

Yes, I think it is overdiagnosed. I have a younger cousin who is exactly like me when I was younger: reading a lot, being busy with your own things in your own little world, knowing a lot of little facts that you drag up when you have to talk to someone, things like that.
My aunt and uncle at first were convinced that he was a genius, so they had him tested: not a genius. Then maybe there was something wrong, so they had him tested psychologically: slightly autistic. He got therapy and an intense guide (?) and went to a school that offers guidance.
When my mother discussed my case with school when I was young, they all agreed I was simply shy. I've worked in a place with truly autistic children and they are not like my cousin and me. I don't see why shy kids need to be called slightly autistic and need guidance and the sorts. Okay, so it takes me longer to get used to a new situation and to make contacts, but not everything has to go fast, right?
The only thing I could have used help with, was crowd-training. I can't stand crowds, or talking in groups. But do you need to be diagnosed an autist to have that? *shrugs*

Interesting thread Arien.

[Jonathan]

I don't know if it's overdiagnosed or not. But so what if it is? I don't know about your countries but here, a diagnose means you can more easily get support, should you want it. The earlier a child is diagnosed, the better because the parents are then introduced to a wide array of welfare, education and help if they think they need it. In this light, it seems better to overdiagnose than to underdiagnose.

Shyness and introversy are completely normal characteristics. Sure, if there's any aspect about the shyness that you want to change, there's help to get. But you don't have to be diagnosed with a neuropsychiatric disorder to get therapy for that.

[Mari]

Ah, if your last sentence refers to my last sentence: I meant does having a problem with crowds have to mean that you are autistic? Does it really need a label and "treatment"?
Sorry for the ambiguity.

[katya]

I think autism, and many of the other things on the spectrum like Aspergers are all way overdiagnosed, yes. I don't know what ever happened to being shy or hyperactive or grouchy or depressed or eccentric or anything without it being a syndrome or a disorder. It's only a disorder if it severely interferes with your life... and a lot of people who are diagnosed use it as an excuse and let it control their lives. That's not to say there aren't people who really are autistic or whatever else.

I personally have always had a particular interest in autism. I think It's just... really interesting. I came across this video the other day, and I definitely think it's worth a watch. http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/0...rssnyt&emc=rss
The words are all typed by her, written by her. It's one of those text-to-speech programs talking. I'd also recommend watching it all at once when you can sit down and pay attention to it. It's like 8 minutes or so I think.

[Insidious Rex]

Autism may be over diagnosed but that’s as much because we have a more refined ability to detect it then we did in the 60’s or 70’s when it was much more of a mystery then it is that its the physchology flavor of the week. Sure there may be some over reporting but don’t discount the fact that there was certainly underreporting in the past.

When I was in college, I worked with both autistic children and autistic adults and I certainly know theres a big big difference between a autistic individual and someone who is “shy” or “introverted”. The issue is that you can have autistic aspects which many of us do. I have several friends I would call autistic-like in that they display behaviors and personalities that are similar to autistic individuals. I don’t think that its just coincidence really since some of their mannerisms are to similar to true autism to be “just introspection” and one’s father has aspergers syndrome so you know theres a genetic factor there. So I think it would do everyone some service to differentiate true autism from autistic-like cases.

[Arien the Maia]

I think that if a person is introverted, anymore, it is thought that that particular person is weird and...depending on if other "quirky" habits exist...possibly on the Autism Spectrum. From what I've researched 25-33% of the world are introverts....in the minority obviously....and forced to live in an extroverted world which is very hard at times. Not liking groups and crowds are classic introverted qualities. I dislike both. I also hate small talk and have horrible eye contact. (so much so that I am painfully aware of it anymore). I will also at times engage in some sort of repetitive behavior. For example, I will often turn a toy car over and play with the wheels and I will shake my hand back and forth if my rings are loose. I never gave a thought that these might be horrible problems that I need to correct....good lord. So all these things can place me on the autism spectrum.

so the stats for autism anymore are 1 in 150 or 166....back in the 80s it was 1 in 8000 (I think...I'll have to get some references on that. at any rate it was really rare then) so my thoughts are that they have broadened the spectrum to include people (mostly introverts). If it is genetic, where are all the adult "autistics" that should have been diagnosed back in the 80s? How do they function today? I think I function fine in society. I have friends (not a ton but a few). I am married and I can hold a job and get along fine with people.

Edit: so IR, do you think people need to correct any autisitic-like mannerisms or not? What have you seen that really differentiates a true autistic vs someone who displays a few of the signs?

[katya]

I don't think anyone should have to change who they are. If they are having a really hard time getting along in the world and want to change that's different, but I think there should be more tolerance all around for people who are different rather than trying to make everyone live the same way. If you're unhappy, change your perspective, not who you are... i guess...

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

I'm not sure. I know people with Autism that aren't at all functional, despite specialized support. I know people who use the diagnosis as an excuse for lazy parenting. The same is true of many other complaints that used to be covered by terms like "slow" or "hyper" and now have formal medical titles and treatment plans.

I don't know how much people should be accommodated, frankly, but it's easy for me to say so, because I'm not much affected. Whether you say "He's been diagnosed with Oppositional Defiant Disorder" or you say, "He's ornery.", adults have a responsibility to try to give children an ability to cope with people. When the diagnosis diminishes that responsibility, it's a bad thing.

It's all like left-handedness, isn't it? The answer sits somewhere in the middle. Not tying the hand up, and not just saying "Hey, she's a lefty, she doesn't need to eat with a fork."

[Arien the Maia]

slightly OT but interestingly enough, leftys used to be "trained" to use their right hands b/c it was thought that there was something wrong with them. I'm sure this probably stems from the Christian theme of sitting at the right hand of Jesus vs the left hand. My cousin's husband was taught by his parents to use his right hand even though it didn't come easily to him.

I agree that parents should be responsible for teaching their kids how to act in society...how to respect others...how to work with others...etc. I know there are indivduals who really do have a severe developmental disorder/impairment in which it is nearly impossible for them to work with and respect others. The question is where do we draw the line? Ornery or Oppositionally Defiant? Quirky or Autistic?

my son is ornery and quirky. Personally I think all little boys are ornery I don't think however that he needs behavior therapy...he's only 3 (well, he will be on the 17th). I'm teaching him as best I can. Luckily for me, since he is so reserved and introverted, I don't have much of a problem with it in public b/c he's so shy.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Arien the Maia

Edit: so IR, do you think people need to correct any autisitic-like mannerisms or not? What have you seen that really differentiates a true autistic vs someone who displays a few of the signs?

No not necessarily. I think they should be taken as face value not just slapped with an autistic sticker and thats it. If you are showing signs of obsessive compulsive ticks or behavior patterns then thats what you are experiencing and they should be approached as such. Not autism. If these compulsive behaviors are debilitating then yes they should be treated. If they are minor or dont really interfere with your normal life then no you dont really need to worry about them. Everyone has something like that. Its just about how much they effect or interfere with your normal life.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Arien the Maia

slightly OT but interestingly enough, leftys used to be "trained" to use their right hands b/c it was thought that there was something wrong with them. I'm sure this probably stems from the Christian theme of sitting at the right hand of Jesus vs the left hand. My cousin's husband was taught by his parents to use his right hand even though it didn't come easily to him.

I have a tutor who had his left hand tied behind his back in an attempt to make him right-handed; it just made him ambidextrous. But the right-good/left-bad thing goes back way before Jesus; it's one of those things that has come to our culture, in truth, from time immemorial.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

I have a tutor who had his left hand tied behind his back in an attempt to make him right-handed; it just made him ambidextrous. But the right-good/left-bad thing goes back way before Jesus; it's one of those things that has come to our culture, in truth, from time immemorial.

interesting.....I think my cousin's husband is alos ambidextrous but writes better with his left hand.

[Ingwe]

I was never diagnosed with it, but now that I think about it, I have Asperger's Syndrome. No matter what way psychology puts it, there are at least 10 different words for this realm of psychology depending on the severity of symptoms (shyness, fear of public speaking, fear of crowds, social anxiety, absorption in a single task or inability to stay on a single task and move from one thing to another (ADHD perhaps), avoidance syndrome, autism, and so on). My fiance has it in that case as well. She's extremely shy and it took her a while to even say anything, even one word, to anyone in my family. At the same time, her sister is completely the opposite and I get along with her just as well as I do Amy.

I think everyone has at least a small bit of ADHD at some time. Anyone who at one time stumbles from one task to another without much transition or has some kind of length of hyperactivity has a little bit of it. I have a lot of it. As Picard on Star Trek once said "he just kept talking in one long, incredibly unbroken sentence moving from topic to topic so that no one had a chance to interrupt, it was really quite hypnotic." I'm kind of like that at times, and I do tend to go from topic to topic, and one bit of evidence to that fact is that the length of even my forum posts is much too long, moving in an often-unorganized fashion from one topic to another. You cannot believe how many times I've been warned about going off-topic, especially years ago when I started posting things online. It's gotten better with time (age refines - it doesn't always result in decay), especially the last several short years. So, that's progress in a short amount of time.

Obsessive compulsive behavior...well, I used to have that a lot too. I think far too much about trivial stuff. When I was younger, if I touched my right ear with my shoulder, I'd have to touch my left ear with my other shoulder. When it comes to correct punctuation or syntax, I have to get it right or else a writing requires an edit, there aren't any exceptions and I do not allow myself any room or space for errors in semantics. When there are errors with an argument I make, I try to hide it and edit it before anyone else notices that I blew it up. I do some web design and all tags have to be closed the right way. The <hr /> tag for instance in html is an empty tag that denotes both a line break and a horizontal line. I don't like using it because it's not "symmetrical". Anything that's not symmetrical gives me OC ticks. My whole thing is if something requires an empty tag like that, I replace it with something else that's equivalent but has both an opening and closing tag.

Over 11 years ago depression came about, but that's another story. It's only recently been stabilized because the last few months it really got bad. I'm taking medicine for treating that, along with some OC ticks. I've been tested for ADHD and there's no match with more than one or two of those symptoms and they're really far and in between. Sometimes general creativity in and of itself is looked down upon by some (depending on what it is) and looks like ADHD or OC but it's not. If I may quote something, "a block of cheese may be called a boulder but it's still a block of cheese."

On the ambidextrous thing, I can draw with both hands at once. I learned to do that in an art class I took some years ago, but apparently I was able to do that all along, it's just that that class was the first time in which I encountered the idea of drawing with both hands. No one else in my family that I know of has that...that I know of. My fiance and much of her family are left-handed..

But back to being introverted, I'm that way to some degree and I'm proud of it as well. But in the past it bordered on xenophobia (I guess that's a good word for it, eventhough not in the correct context). I had xenophobia not with anyone outside of my region, but I tended to always keep with my own and play it a little too safe. In college, I had my own 'enclave' such as it is, and it was a Tolkien sort of round table that may as well have had a big sign on it that said "no outsiders". It was a group of about 20 of us who were into that stuff and was formed during my last couple of semesters at college. That round table goes on still today, but its membership now only includes me, my fiance, and her sister. Much to the point though, I've always considered it more imperative to have just a few true friends as opposed to many so-so friends, but really that statement is my own way of dealing with the fact that I feel like an outsider anytime I walk outside my 'comfort zone'.

As far as some of these conditions such as autism and depression go, sometimes medicine alone or therapy alone work, and sometimes they have to be used in combination. Either way, it's a struggle for anyone with those conditions. Some big movie stars and singers (now more than ever before) have certain conditions like that and some have struggled, and suffered, with those conditions for a few decades. Having money or fame doesn't change that, and the fame part sometimes makes it worse for them. On the opposite end of the spectrum are those who are ignored or smote by society for having various quirks, or just because of who their family is. Some don't have much of a voice and that causes a lot of problems too, mostly with self-esteem and depression which can actually exacerbate or magnify other conditions after prolonged exposure to it. So in that way there are generally a few types of people:

1. Extroverted / Respected - those who are out-going and sometimes in a position of power who are seen to be acceptable by most people and their opinions respected and welcomed. Examples would be Olorin (Gandalf), Franklin D. Roosevelt, frat brothers (respected by other frat brothers but not by the school staff), and so on. Gandalf was everywhere in the Third Age. Anywhere you went, you would not find many people who haven't heard of Mithrandir, Olorin, Gandalf, or Old Grey Beard.
2. Extroverted / Outcast - those who are out-going but are seen by others to be annoying or just not respected because of past mistakes, whether they were responsible or not. Merry and Pippin (especially Pippin) were at first seen as big trouble-makers and Gandalf was quite stern in his roasting of Pippin at Moria. Later on they would become a part of the first category and would be respected as Frodo and Sam were ("you bow to no one", that says it all).
3. Introverted / Respected - those who don't say much, but when they have something to say, they say it and their opinions are taken positively over 50% of the time. These people may be seen as among the wisest - those who hold their tongues until it is necessary to say something. They aren't likely to say or do anything irrelevant. Examples would be Elrond, Legolas, Galadriel, Celeborn, Captain Jean-Luc Picard of the Starship Enterprise (LoL), Harry Truman (initially did not believe he would be a good president), and so on. These people have it rough for a while and earlier on will have had their share of embarrassments and times they really want to forget but can't. Yet, age refines in this case and they may become part of the first category after a while. Olorin (Gandalf) was once a part of this category before coming to Middle Earth.
4. Introverted / Outcast - these people have it perhaps the worst. As they go through life, they find that they do not have a voice that is worth much in most others' eyes. Thus, they become more introverted over time due to a cycle of failure/keeping silence in response. Some will fall into great xenophobia if it is coupled with other conditions. They will not trust anyone as time goes on.

Anyone in any of those categories has their own quirks, and sometimes these modern-day discovered conditions produce some exaggerations to the point that oftentimes people are misdiagnosed and prescribed medication that they do not need. On the other hand, some who have these conditions aren't diagnosed of them and are left to their struggle whether by their own will or by luck to turn the tide. If you are proud and have a strong will, you can find a way through it on your own as long as the condition isn't anything worse than moderate, but as we are all related to each other in some way, diagnosing someone the right way (even if that diagnosis proves that nothing is wrong) is the same as helping your brother or sister, and so when a condition is incorrectly diagnosed, it often affects more than just that person. If someone who is potentially suicidal isn't screened early enough, that is a potential life taken for no reason - someone who could have later on changed the course of history for the better, and I'd rather believe always that we all have something to contribute as opposed to believing any one person is just 'another mouth to feed'. Life on Earth is far more valuable than all of the riches of the Earth combined, especially to The One, at least it's what I believe. Making our environment beautiful and making the best use of resources should not be something to be fought over or gained by a single entity but instead should be something that is a unified effort.

By the way Arien, it is good to see that you're proud of those quirks in you.

We all own the Earth - we all rule it, regardless of our quirks, for if we are proud of who and what we are, that is when we can better ourselves, accomplish a lot, and reach the highest potential we can reach. If we pity ourselves or expect pity from others (which is narrow-minded because we all have suffered and struggled in one way or another), we cannot accomplish much or better ourselves, and in that case age would decay, instead of refine. "You have your own choice ahead of you...to rise to heights unseen since the rule of Elendil....or to fall into darkness...with all that is left of your kin." Not an exact quote from Galadriel, but fitting. We can choose to give into what some others may say about us (as I could give into what some in my mother's family have said of me) or I can accept the fact that I am my own person with my own path, and that I can't allow that path to become overgrown with weeds which would cause me to lose that path. The weeds that block your path are the people who sometimes say things to you just to make you lose your pride in yourself (or even your faith). The act of cutting down those weeds would be the act of simply ignoring the wrong and accepting that there is good in this world, and good in yourself. In actuality, it's a lot easier than trimming the weeds from your garden. The good in us is our strength, and if we choose to take advantage of that, we choose a good life.

I have learned that when your elders say to you "think positively" that it is probably one of the most important things, if not the most important thing, that you can learn. I learned it the hard way, as many of us do. Don't ever be convinced that the good things your elders say are for nothing (despite the mistakes of the ill they sometimes say when they become frustrated).

Btw, 100 poss! Woohoo!