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#1 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Silvan Realm of Mirkwood
Posts: 16
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![]() During the past week, I've been doing a lot a research on Tom Bombadil and what exactly he is. Through my research, I've come to a conclusion.
* Tom Bombadil is merely an enigma * He was inspired by a Dutch doll that was thrown in the lavatory and rescued, becoming the hero of many of Tolkien's stories, not just LOTR * Tolkien even says that Tom Bombadil was put into the trilogy for the fun of it; no purpose or reason * Many suggest that Tom is a Maia, but according to Tolkien, he shouldn't be taken seriously I'd like to know your opinions on this subject. ![]()
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ElfGal There is something good in this world, Mister Frodo; and it's worth fighting for! "All the great things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." -Winston Churchill |
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#2 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
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In this one case, I disregard Tolkien's suggestions.
![]() Tom is Maia! ![]()
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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#3 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Silvan Realm of Mirkwood
Posts: 16
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But how can you go against Tolkien, who wrote it?
I mean, I think he should be Maia too, but that's not what Tolkien said...
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ElfGal There is something good in this world, Mister Frodo; and it's worth fighting for! "All the great things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." -Winston Churchill |
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#4 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
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My personal view is that just because Tolkien wrote something does not mean it must be literally true or accurate beyond questioning even when it's "story internal."
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#5 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Silvan Realm of Mirkwood
Posts: 16
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OK, I can see your argument, but I disagree with you. Tolkien is the writer of the story. He is like the "god" of everything in LOTR. You have to acknowledge him as more than the writer or LOTR. It's HIS book, HIS story that HE wrote. He could have made Frodo die, and we'd have to be fine with that.
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ElfGal There is something good in this world, Mister Frodo; and it's worth fighting for! "All the great things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." -Winston Churchill |
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#6 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
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There's a little more to it than that.
For one, Tolkien changed his mind about some things, and never resolved some items in his own mind. For another... Tolkien never says that Tom was NOT a Maia. He just says he was an 'Enigma'... a 'one of a kind' being. It could well be that he was the ONLY Maia who got so wrapped up in helping create his little portion of Middle Earth and wouldn't leave it... and became an Enigma in THAT way. Also - Tolkien at times presents himself as a chronicler, and in stating these things about Middle Earth, makes them out as his opinion, or conclusion, not as absolute fact. So... in a few ways, he ends up leaving some 'wiggle-room'. On Bombadil, as well as other topics. ![]()
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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#7 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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Tom was the opposite of Sauron in every way. Even more so then the other "good guys", or the valar/maiar, for that matter.
I like to think of him as an ideal being created by Eru as example to all his other creations.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#8 |
The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Far Harad
Posts: 1,006
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I always sort of felt that Tom was either a unique spirit of the world kind of thing or that Tom was just a regular guy who transcended his mortal existence, sort of a buddha like figure. I always thought that his love for Goldberry just brought him out of the normal cycle of man. I dont pretend to be anything of a real tolkien scholar and I havent read FOTR more than 3 times. Buit that was the simple stupid image i got when i first read it.
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A Bit More Grown Up This Time... |
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#9 | |
The Ñoldóran
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mishawaka, IN
Posts: 2,050
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You know, I've always thought that Tom was Eru, or an incarnation thereof. It's just been something that always tickled my fancy.
We know for a fact that Maiar are tempted by the ring (Sauron is), whereas Tom isn't. Quote:
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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#10 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 987
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I, too, don't believe Tolkien should always have the last word regarding Middle Earth. Is he a high authority? Yes, but he's not the only authority. The texts themselves present a context that must be considered. Letters and unpublished texts are useful tools but I don't consider them 100% authoritative for the reasons stated above by Valandil.
I like the idea that Tom is Eru but to take this a step further, isn't everything part Eru? All come from his thought or the thought of his subcreators (who came from his thought). Perhaps Tom is a being (call him a Maia or some other unnamed spirit of Eru) completely unsullied by Arda marred who chose to dwell in Middle Earth. I'm not sure calling him Maia indicates he would need to be tempted by The Ring. Aren't Maiar simply the rest of the spirits that weren't Valar? I'm kind of rambling here . . . thinking out loud, so forgive me if I'm not all that coherent. Another thing to consider. Gandalf, after leaving the Hobbits to go attend to the Shire, goes off for a long talk with Bombadil. Why? What did they discuss? Does it give a clue to his identity? |
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#11 | |
The Ñoldóran
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mishawaka, IN
Posts: 2,050
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Quote:
If you want to take a pantheistic approach, then yes, everything is Eru and Eru is everything... ![]() As for Tolkien being the final arbiter...I'm torn on this. It was his Universe, of course, and exists only because of him. Tolkien is Eru in Middle-earth. Therefore I think that his opinions need to have a good deal of weight, at the very least. That said, I enjoy Tolkien discussion a great deal, and when people just throw out quotes and say "Here's what he said, shut up now," then that's not terribly conducive to discussion. ![]()
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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#12 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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#13 |
The Ñoldóran
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mishawaka, IN
Posts: 2,050
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Well, I didn't say I had any good textual evidence for it, I just said I liked the idea.
![]() ![]() So I hold out that Tom could be Eru...and anyway, we've never seen Tom angered or infuriated...who knows? It's all speculation, anyway, as Tolkien left the character intentionally enigmatic.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian Last edited by Curufin : 03-26-2008 at 07:07 PM. |
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#14 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 987
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He sure gave that glowing hand a good stomping in the barrow.
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#15 |
The Ñoldóran
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mishawaka, IN
Posts: 2,050
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Oooh...Tom's Dark side...
I hear a fan fic coming on. ![]()
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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#16 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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Quote:
![]() Tom was on neither side, that is what makes him so unique. Eru, and right about everyone else, was committed either to the FOGAL or FOEAD* *Note for our newbies ![]() |
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#17 | |
The Ñoldóran
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mishawaka, IN
Posts: 2,050
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See, it's the fact that Tom was neutral that makes me think this possible.
Quote:
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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#18 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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Quote:
![]() The Downfall of Numenor is evidence enough, but let us take something less obvious. Just look: The Men of the Mountails (known later as" the Dead of Dunharrow") served Sauron for about an Age. They must have sworn allegiance and all that. Then Isildur comes and they swear allegiance to him, breaking their old oaths to Sauron. Repercussions? - None. Then Sauron starts the war, and the Men of the Mountains return to their old allegiance, breaking the Oath to Isildur. Repercussions? Denial of the Gift, an Age as disembodied spirits - How is that? Now didn't Eru favor FOGAL over FOEAD? ![]() |
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#19 |
The Ñoldóran
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mishawaka, IN
Posts: 2,050
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I think when it comes to actions such as those of which you speak, you're totally right. Eru was on the side of good in everything we see him do.
BUT - He created evil. Melkor was his creation just as surely as was Manwë or Varda. Does this mean that Melkor was, in the end, good - or does it mean that Evil serves some higher purpose? Or are "good" and "evil" irrelevant distractions of incarnates that mean nothing to Eru? His words in the BoLT I which I love to quote (because I think they're beautiful) seem to indicate that greater beauty and joy was created because of the presence of evil than would have existed without it. Was, therefore, Evil a way of creating an even greater good than simple good could have created? Is, therefore, Evil truly Evil? Wow, I'm starting to confuse myself now... ![]()
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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#20 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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Quote:
I am not sure I can answer your other points. My philosophy is quite simple. ![]() Eru may have boasted about this and that, but I see him actually like a very "human" being, like Norse gods or Greek gods. Eru had his General Plan - Melkor messed it up. Eru had his plans for the Firstborn - Feanor and company messed up with them. He had his plans for the Secondborn - the ungrateful Numenoreans ruined them entirely making Eru angrily smash them as flies. ![]() |
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