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08-30-2006, 02:19 AM | #21 | |
Elven Warrior
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I think it is relevant to our discussion to mention the source of inspiration for Sam, as stated in Tolkien's biography:
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08-30-2006, 03:22 AM | #22 |
Elf Lord
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Thanks for that quote, Landroval. I wonder who the "old campaigners" were? It seems as if Tolkien had a problem with the lower classes except where they were assigned to serve him.
Just a few things that spring to mind around the Shire's class system: - Sam calling Frodo "Master" throughout - Sam calls Pippin and Merry "Master" too at times - Frodo, and others, referring to him as his servant - Bilbo's kindness to "less important families" - The hobbits' concern with lineage But it would appear there is also a class mobility, such as the "rise" of the Gamgees afterwards, which would set it apart from the English class system |
08-30-2006, 07:36 AM | #23 | |
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I think what you often have in our modern-time armies, is young officers coming in, fresh from college or officer-training or a military academy - being placed in command of men who are older than them and who have been in the thick of numerous battles over the course of several years. It's quite natural for these sort of "old campaigners" to hold a little resentment toward the young officers who are placed over them. Yet they will still follow their orders, even if they lead to disaster (which they often will, due to the inexperience of the officer). So - I don't know if Tolkien actually held them in contempt - he was probably just "sizing up" the situation.
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08-31-2006, 08:05 AM | #24 | |||
Lady of Letters
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Anyway, I agree that the Shire has a pretty clear class system. It's not feudalism in the strictest sense, more like a benign and idealised version of the social structure of 19th and early 20th century rural England. This kind of structure allows for social mobility like Sam's through education and the help of a wealthy patron, since rare cases like these reinforce the status quo rather than challenging it. Quote:
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. Last edited by sun-star : 08-31-2006 at 08:09 AM. |
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08-31-2006, 05:58 PM | #25 | |
Elf Lord
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I see use of words such as hammer and gaffer and master as a more idealised rural idyl, and since we know that JRR uses language very carefully in description more than most, this i think is how he intends it - it goes against all evidence of what he creates with the shire and what it stands for to have any direct comparison to any rigid and 'orcish' (in tolkien's mind) system- after all - isn't this the whole point of the 'scouring of the shire' chapter??? the whole contrast of the whole work is seen, to me, in the hobbits and the free shire and it's hark back to a quiet peaceful life and the world cruelly turning to power hungry, industrialsation and war and regimentation of the world gone mad ... whoever says there were not rich and poor and a beleivable culture??? ... of course! ... but to say it is classism seems patently mad to me. best, BB Last edited by Butterbeer : 08-31-2006 at 06:04 PM. |
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09-07-2006, 10:03 AM | #26 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
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I agree with you. It was just the way country people in his time would speek. Nothing about a class system.
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09-07-2006, 10:30 AM | #27 |
Elf Lord
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Well, we're going to have to agree to differ on that one I'm afraid: I can't see how anyone could convince me that Tolkien's Shire is NOT a very clear class system. I see it as an idealized, neo-feudal agrarian system, in which the upper class have a genuine sense of stewardship and responsibility towards the lower, and in return, the lower class have a sense of duty towards the upper.
However, I agree, BB, that this adds to the realism and authenticity of it. On to Galadriel's "technology". I suspect that JRRT would balk at the use of the term in connection with Galadriel's box. * fnarr, fnarr * I think it's more a kind of blessing. The interesting thing about it is how its virtue is multiplied ijn response to Sam's wish to heal the hurts of all the Shire, and not just his own garden. |
09-07-2006, 03:44 PM | #28 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
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Yeah, like: the more you want nature repaired, the more power it'll give you in doing that.
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09-22-2006, 06:39 PM | #29 | ||
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I agree with the Gaffer about the Hobbit class system as part of their society. That doesn't mean Hobbits are bad or anything, it just means that not all their positions of authority are merit-based, like the Mayor.
I took the "old campaigners" in the biography quote to mean Tolkien's superiors, though it seems I got it backwards. No officer likes the soldiers he commands to be insubordinate, regardless of their class. Tolkien doesn't strike me as having a problem with lower classes, I merely think he wrote one into Hobbit society. (And to varying degrees, all the societies in Middle-earth.)
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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09-22-2006, 07:30 PM | #30 | ||
Elf Lord
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i disagree on da agreeing to disagree bit i can go with most of your agrarian stewardship bit, but not the class element. Suppose it ultimately depends on what you mean by class. But a rigid structure that alludes to class and a rigid system is clearly not the shire. El Nurv: Quote:
This to me, is actually rather an astute point - given the rigidity of ancestral lineage and the taller more noble kings and lords and etc etc ... and the con-commitant classism inherrent throughout all his middle earth writings- it all actually draws into stark contrast what he idealises about the shire and the hobbits - he is not per se preaching a meritocracy in the shire (though you could hardly argue Sam as not being worthy of being mayor as and when he wanted it after ol' Will Whitfooty doodah blokey had had a good run) but there is all the world of difference in the shire to say the high elves or the Lords of Rohan or of Arnor or Gondor ... Case closed! Last edited by Butterbeer : 09-22-2006 at 07:32 PM. |
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09-23-2006, 02:09 AM | #31 | ||
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All the societies in Middle-earth have class systems, they're just different from each other. And Hobbits are way more laid back.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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12-22-2007, 08:59 AM | #32 | |||||||||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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About Saruman's occupation, I always wondered what his motives exactly were. He says he did it to extract some revenge on the Hobbits for the destruction of Isengard, but I dare say that's a later motive. That only comes into play when he himself arrived at Hobbiton and started the random desctruction in earnest. But he already had set things in motion much earlier, only shortly after Frodo and the three others had left the Shire. Was it a wish to dominate the Hobbits, or was his desire to find out the Ring-bearer among the Hobbits the actual root? Quote:
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12-22-2007, 11:58 PM | #33 | ||||||||||||
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Editing will now ensue.
Edit: Actually, didn't Galadriel give him that jewel along with the phial? Quote:
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Practically speaking, to find the Ring he should have been looking much earlier (maybe he was?), but Saruman seems like the type who operates in the background and only reveals himself when he's in complete control of the situation. This is what we saw with Saruman's use of Lotho, as you outlined in your post here: Quote:
Saruman must have known that the Ring was no longer in the Shire at the time he invaded. I just can't imagine him being that short of intelligence for an invasion - not a strategic and clever guy like him. So finding the Ring probably wasn't his goal. Revenge is more likely, especially when you think that Saruman is a bit of a coward, or at least he doesn't like to get his hands dirty. It was the Ents that really trashed his home; Merry and Pippin were just the catalyst. But it's easier to get revenge on complacent Hobbits than on beings who can tear apart stone as though it's loves of bread. Quote:
A good point, but why not capture him?
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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12-23-2007, 07:41 AM | #34 | ||||||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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I realise there may be a third motive that I hadn't considered before. Saruman knew Gandalf had much interest in the Hobbit realm, therefore Saruman may also have been motivated in finding out what Gandalf was up too. The later take-over and destruction of the Shire could also have been a means to hurt Gandalf since Saruman knew Gandalf had a soft spot for the Shire. Saruman must have been sorely disappointed to find out only the Hobbits had come to oust him, and that Gandalf had bailed out. If Gandalf knew that Saruman had been busy in the Shire (he certainly knew of the new Buckland gate) then there's a possibility he not only went to Tom Bombadil to give the Hobbits the chance to stand on their own legs, but he might not have wanted to give Saruman the satisfaction of showing him what destruction the fallen wizard could still wreak. Quote:
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12-23-2007, 05:16 PM | #35 | ||||||||||
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Didn't someone post a quote from Tolkien's letters saying he based his character on the (typical?) British soldier, from his experience in WWI? Quote:
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Had those four Hobbits not fired, they probably would have captured Grima. But those guys were probably really keyed up from the battle. I just can't imagine a Hobbit killing someone vengefully. Not even a jerk like Ted Sandyman. I wonder what became of that guy anyway?
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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12-24-2007, 07:12 AM | #36 | ||||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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The only set-back for Saruman was that both Bilbo and Frodo didn't get along with that branch of the family in the first place. Otherwise things might have happened quite differently. Quote:
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I reckon Ted probably lay low for a while afterwards. His reputation might have gotten a serious beating, but I doubt the Hobbits would have laid a finger on him.
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