06-22-2006, 05:46 AM | #41 | ||
Elf Lord
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Shame on you Gor, CAB and Landroval ...
... what is this 'agreement' notion that you speaketh of? Quote:
Gandalf's power plus the One Ring's power versus Sauron's power The point is here, no one doubts as and when gandlaf finally masters the ring and focuses his will into getting the full power and command fromj himself and the ring, that he would defeat Sauron with all his rings, and armies and fortresses / allies etc ... the point from your quote relates more to the time and effort it would take gandalf to become the Ringlord and Lord of the rings, whilst sauron would have a window of opportunity with his armies and allies to attempt to defeat gandalf in this time. Thus i think it bears little to no relevance to the Ring V's sauron. Quote:
Else why, when the ring is severed from him does Sauron flee, a disembodied fea? Why when the ring is personally delivered into the fire by Gollum and Co the toothy couriers ... does the foundations of baradur (built with the power of the ring) and Sauron vanish in a twinkle of a hobbit lasses's eye? Last edited by Butterbeer : 06-22-2006 at 05:48 AM. |
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06-22-2006, 05:53 AM | #42 | |
Elf Lord
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wotcha Serenoli! Nay, fair maiden, think rather that the power and the willpower are all there manifest in the ring... ... but it is a ring! a golden ring for sure .... it has not mouth nor arms nor legs to carry it ... it is the spirit and will and power, but mainly it is a ring ...never ended signifying many things ... IT IS A CONDUIT. |
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06-22-2006, 06:19 AM | #43 | ||
Elf Lord
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wotcha Serenoli! Nay, fair maiden, think rather that the power and the willpower are all there manifest in the ring... ... but it is a ring! a golden ring for sure .... it has not mouth nor arms nor legs to carry it ... it is the spirit and will and power, but mainly it is a ring ...never ended signifying many things ... IT IS A CONDUIT. IT CHANNELS ENERGY AND FOCUSES THE WILLS OF ADAMANT. It is also designed to ensnare and encompass the powers and wills of the other rings / ringbearers. For all the raw power and evil will, it, like any tool, it needs a craftsman to wield it and use it ... only then when the mind of the user engages it can the will and evil of the ring begin to try and take hold of the ringlord ...thus it never really got a true grip on Gollum, other than low-level ring radioactive "leakage" as it were, over time, knawing away at his mind... It uses or is used willingly or quite often even unknowingly or not each user "according to their abilities" ...but only when it is being worn and to some low level way engaged can it effect anything ... this, i think, we see at Cirith Ungol. But the Ring itself is to me the dominant (potentially) part of the duality... Landroval: Quote:
Last edited by Butterbeer : 06-22-2006 at 06:23 AM. |
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06-22-2006, 11:42 AM | #44 | ||||
Elven Warrior
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06-22-2006, 06:37 PM | #45 | |||
Elven Warrior
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The Ring vs. Sauron is an interesting question, but we really don’t have a lot of useful evidence. So, I can only think of two ways to answer. 1. The Ring’s practical strength in a confrontation with Sauron was less than Sauron’s (due to the reasoning that Landroval gave). 2. The Ring’s absolute strength was greater than Sauron’s (which would depend entirely on the quote I was speaking of before). Butterbeer, you seem to remember this quote also. Do you know where it is? I looked around a little but couldn’t find it. I saw “great part” in a couple of places, but not “greater part”. |
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06-23-2006, 12:26 PM | #46 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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When he was disembodied at the end of the 2 age, the nazgul were NOT disembodied as well - they simply went East. As I already pointed out not even Elrord was sure that the power of the 19 rings would vanish with the One gone. There was a possibility that the other Rings would become free. Perhaps nazgul hoped to become free as well, when the One was destroyed. All they had to do was to dig their rings out of the rubbish of Barad-Dur. CAB, great new nazgul conspiracy idea. Indeed, the orcs who started the fight were those of Minas Morgul. Nazgul were able to drive orcs forward in battle madness staying themselves behind the lines - it is canon. So why not suppose that one nazgul was hovering over all the time, making the orcs attack each other? . The sly fox appeared only when all was over and the hobbits out of the fortress. |
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06-24-2006, 03:07 AM | #47 | |||||
Elven Warrior
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06-24-2006, 12:39 PM | #48 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
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This bit of information:
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The other quote, from the LOTR, Counsil of Elrond, is the only source of information concerning the ringbearers' beliefs and doubts in the Third Age. Only, Landroval, you have cut a half of it, leaving only the part that suited you better. Here Elrond's words are in full: Quote:
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Last edited by Gordis : 06-24-2006 at 12:41 PM. |
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06-24-2006, 01:46 PM | #49 | ||
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06-24-2006, 02:08 PM | #50 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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There was an excellent thread somewhere here about the number and personalities of the White Council. When I find it, I shall post the link. |
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06-24-2006, 03:47 PM | #51 | ||
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Of the others who thought differently, we don't even know if their opinion was any worth. |
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06-24-2006, 04:31 PM | #52 | |||||
Elven Warrior
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Sorry, just nitpicking, I know. |
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06-24-2006, 04:34 PM | #53 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Here is the thread I was looking for:
http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.ph...ighlight=White Quote:
But still among the Wise, there were some who believed otherwise. And their opinion was not entirely discarded by Elrond: he DID mention it as a possibility. What about Saruman, the chief Ring-expert? We don't know. Galadriel, of course, was the one who knew more about the Rings than any other living creature, save Sauron himself. Wasn't she Celebrimbor's friend and maybe even sweetheart? Well, I am not going to defent the "sweetheart part", but still she was the only one who discussed Rings with Celebrimbor himself. Nazgul had no such inside information. All they knew about the rings was either from bitter personal experience, or told by Sauron, the Father of lies. They could have the same hopes as some of the Wise had. |
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06-24-2006, 04:46 PM | #54 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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As for belief and hope... nazgul might have hoped, couldn't they? If their hope proved true, they would be happy and free and no Sauron, and no new Ringlord. Bliss. If not, they only risked dying and going to Mandos and beyond as (without the Rings) they would have done long ago. |
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06-24-2006, 05:56 PM | #55 | ||
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06-25-2006, 04:10 AM | #56 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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It looks like "some" were people of some importance. |
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06-25-2006, 04:13 AM | #57 | |
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We do not know if those who hoped that the rings would be destroyed are cooks or White Council members (they could be both). We only know of two named informed opinions, and they say otherwise... Last edited by Landroval : 06-25-2006 at 04:36 AM. |
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12-06-2007, 09:15 AM | #58 | |||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Although I reckon that making Sam look like a warrior was a bit of a side effect. Sauron would have used the Ring to keep control of his orcs, so I'm thinking the Ring had a natural effect of impressing orcs, making the bearer look commandeering. And the Ring also seems to have the strongest force of mind-domination when it's worn or held thightly, like Sam was doing. Quote:
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So I don't think their personalities were as much at play here as the lenght of time carrying the Ring. Quote:
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