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01-26-2006, 08:47 AM | #21 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Forkbeard - great answers!
I would not have thought of Boromir blowing his horn for the last time being connected with Theoden blowing the horn here, but a very interesting parallel. BTW - when I ask if Merry was the only one who didn't recognize Dernhelm for Eowyn - I really meant of those within Elfhelm's company.
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01-26-2006, 11:57 PM | #22 |
Head of the Department for the Invention and Propagation of Sugar, Spice and Everything Nice!
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5. Any comments on Eomer’s reaction to seeing Eowyn? Why did he assume she was dead, instead of checking, like Prince Imrahil would do?
Eomer perhaps doubted his siter's ability in the fierce battle, and did not think she could have survived. And he had just seen Theoden die, so maybe he was a bit desperate, and accepted that she was dead without checking.
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01-31-2006, 02:34 AM | #23 |
Elven Warrior
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[QUOTE=Valandil]The Ride of the Rohirrim and The Battle of Pelennor Fields
The Battle of the Pelennor Fields 1. Now that it has just ended, how is Gandalf’s confrontation with the Lord of the Nazgul at the Gate of Minas Tirith like/unlike his earlier confrontation with the Balrog of Moria? HMMM. In both, Gandalf is preventing the passage of an enemy. But there the similarity ends. In Moria, they are trying to escape, in Minas Tirith they are trying to prevent invasion and being overrun. In Moria, the confrontation is more intense and both fall. In MT, they are just beginning to ramp up the tension when both are taken away by other calls on the battlefield. I think we readers are meant to note these similarities and differences though.... 2. Note the Nazgul’s cry of hatred as his mace fell and broke Eowyn’s shield. Normal Nazgul cry – like the Hobbits have heard since they were in the Shire? A spell? More likely just the intimidating sounds one makes in battle. 3. Who killed the Lord of the Nazgul – Merry or Eowyn? Both. I would have once argued for Merry as being the more important. But I changed my mind after some reconsideration. The scene is modeled on the scene in Beowulf where Beowulf and Wiglaf kill the dragon. Wiglaf cowers in fear, as Beowulf is burned and severely wounded. Wiglaf for love of his lord recovers his senses and comes up and stabs the dragon down low in the belly, and then Beo deals the final blow, if I recall on the head though I wouldn't swear to the last detail and am too lazy at the moment to check. But the parallels there are obvious and it is apparent that both Beo and Wiglaf were instrumental in the slaying of the dragon. Likewise, I think Tolkien is saying the same thing. 4. Comment on the ‘Warrior Culture’ of the Rohirrim – in particular with the words spoken as they go into battle, and the final words of Theoden to both Merry and Eomer, as well as Eomer’s response. These are the Northmen. I could talk about the heroic ethos or "warrior culture" til doomsday: but the Rohirrim are the Tolkien world's Beowulf's and Njal's and Eric Bloodaxe: in them we meet a fictionalization of the Germanic warriors we meet especially in Old English and Old Norse texts. 5. Any comments on Eomer’s reaction to seeing Eowyn? Why did he assume she was dead, instead of checking, like Prince Imrahil would do? A) Theoden was dead B) no one had ever battled the Witch King before and lived C) she lay as though dead and barely breathed, little enough that only the "mirror" test gave sufficient proof that she was alive. But to the first and second glances, she lie as though dead and looked dead. Hence Eomer's reaction. Imrahil was more experienced and older: Eomer is one of the good guys but he is young and brash. Note also that the other men of Rohan also assume that she is dead. 6. Who / what was Gothmog – the lieutenant of Morgul: Man, Orc, Nazgul, Other? Unknown for certain. I find it unlikely that an orc would be given such a position. I find it equally unlikely that a Nazgul would be this lieutenant. The one thing that gets me is the name....it doesn't fit any of the Nazgul or Men, even Tolkien himself was confused about the other Gothmog in the Sim, a Balrog who commanded Morgoth's army and was almost equal to Sauron. So this Gothmog seems a hold over and imitation of that one, and I find that in that case it is unlikely to be a Nazgul. Balrog is to Sauron and Morgoth as Black Numenorean is to Nazgul. Or so I think at the moment. |
02-25-2006, 02:16 PM | #24 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Suppose Gothmog II was a mortal Man. Even if the parents were late Third Age Black Numenoreans - Morgoth worshippers, the name is too lofty for even a very noble Black Numenorean child. As Forkbeard points out, Gothmog the First had been almost equal (and maybe equal?) to Sauron. Who knows if the two Maiar, Morgoth's lieutenants, were on good terms back in the First age? The parents wouldn't risk the Dark Lord's displeasure naming their child after such a high being. Suppose Gothmog II was a nazgul. The parents would be mid-Second Age Men, at the time when very few, or none of the Numenoreans worshipped Morgoth. The ME "barbarian" natives often did, it seems, but I am not sure that the "barbarians" would have enough knowledge of old lore to know about Gothmog I. So, most likely, it was NOT a name received at birth. IMHO Gothmog II earned his name as a reward by his long service to the Dark Lord. And that more likely makes him a nazgul, than one of the mortal servants. As for the nazgul names, we know but one - Khamul, the Shadow of the East. But I have a suspicion, that Khamul actually translates as "Eastern Shadow" "Kha-" like in "Khand" meaning "East" . If I am right, than it must be the name that Khamul got while he was already a nazgul, not his birth-name. Very probably all of the nazgul in the course of their very long lives got many names, much like Olorin-Mithrandir-Gandalf-Incanus, or Aragorn-Strider-Thorongil-Elessar So, I think, the name itself gives us few clues, only shows the wielder's high status, which we know already, as he was second in command in the Mordorian army. Though, of course, it doesn't fit somehow that one of the cold nazgul would be named after a fiery Barlog... Hmm... Last edited by Gordis : 02-25-2006 at 02:40 PM. |
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03-29-2006, 02:12 AM | #25 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-28-2007, 12:08 PM | #26 | ||||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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I arrive overly later at the party, but I've promised myself I'd finish the chapter discussion, years after date if I must.
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She must have said something to convince him to let her come. I doubt Eowyn would have pulled rank on him, all he then would have to do is inform Theoden or Eomer of her presence. The fact that he didn't seem to imply indeed some agreement on his part. Would he have let her come strictly on the basis of her martial skills? Perhaps out of pity, because her death-wish must have been obvious to anyone if Merry could pick it up too. Plenty of room for speculation. Quote:
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It can also be possible that the dark years Ghan-buri-Ghan and his people remembered were far worse than the recent, possibly sporadic hunting by the rohirrim. The rohirrim would then be the lesser of two evils. The rohirrim were also in need of help, Ghan-buri-Ghan would have had less trouble to reason with them than with the orcs and forces of Mordor that had come as an invading force. Quote:
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In the confrontation at the gate of Minas Tirith, the idea that a confrontation is inevitable is less present. Before a first blow between the two is delivered, the Witch-King is called away by the sound of horns and Gandalf is needed at Denethor's barbecue. Neither had at that moment the time to press their point. Quote:
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