The ACLU - pros and cons

[GreyMouser]

Let's say you have some members of a religious minority complaining that their tax dollars are being used to proselytise their children in a public school

One reported incident appears particularly egregious, concerning Samantha Dobrich’s 2004 graduation:
She was the only Jewish student in her graduating class. The complaint relates that local pastor, Jerry Fike, in his invocation, followed requests for "our heavenly Father's" guidance for the graduates with:

I also pray for one specific student, that You be with her and guide her in the path that You have for her. And we ask all these things in Jesus' name.
... .
On the evening in August 2004 when the board was to announce its new policy, hundreds of people turned out for the meeitng. The Dobrich family and Jane Doe felt intimidated and asked a state trooper to escort them.


The complaint recounts a raucous crowd that applauded the board's opening prayer and then, when sixth-grader Alexander Dobrich stood up to read a statement, yelled at him "take your yarmulke off!" His statement, read by Samantha, confided "I feel bad when kids in my class call me Jew boy."



...A former board member suggested that Mona Dobrich might "disappear" like Madalyn Murray O'Hair, the atheist whose Supreme Court case resulted in ending organized school prayer. She disappeared in 1995 and her dismembered body was found six years later
The crowd booed an ACLU speaker and told her to "go back up north."

In the days after the meeting the community poured venom on the Dobriches. Callers to the local radio station said the family they should convert or leave the area. Someone called them and said the Ku Klux Klan was nearby.

http://www.jewsonfirst.org/06b/indianriver.html

Say you're "StoptheACLU" and you have a problem with these uppity Jews.

Solution?

No Jews=No problem!

Publish their name, address and phone number, and sit back as the threats roll in.

Look, anyone in the public forum is open to any kind of harrassment, criticism and attacks- but you do NOT give out private information like the right-wingers in the recent NYTs case advocating publishing the same info for reporters's and editors's children.

[hectorberlioz]

Alright now people...

how about this Nevada girl who thanked God in her valedictorion speech, and the school principals unplugged the mike on her? The ACLU apperantly didn't jump to the rescue of Free Speech.

On a humorous note, read the third and second to last...of these

[Butterbeer]

No Jews=No problem!

...where did i last hear that final solution, huh?

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Alright now people...

how about this Nevada girl who thanked God in her valedictorion speech, and the school principals unplugged the mike on her? The ACLU apperantly didn't jump to the rescue of Free Speech.

On a humorous note, read the third and second to last...of these

Are people ignoring this issue, or has it not really made it into the mainstream media?

[Butterbeer]

cheese?

(as in price of .... eh what?)

what in today's world do you mean by mainstream? ... what we all as indivuiduals choose to view?????

(just curious)

best BB

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

cheese?

(as in price of .... eh what?)

what in today's world do you mean by mainstream? ... what we all as indivuiduals choose to view?????

(just curious)

best BB

mainstream media is a term we Americans use to deride anything that seems to us, not to report things accurately...but there's a good reason for it!

Mainstream is: CNN, ABC, NBC, MSNBC, CBS. FOX is also mainstream, but they aren't seen (at least not my a certain majority) biased as the others are. FOX has been accused, of course, of being biased towards the right. But the fact is, if you look up the profiles of the people they have, they aren't all Rep/Conservative. It's just that CNN, much more popular, is so biased that once you come out of their trance, it's only inevitable that FOX will look biased...

[Butterbeer]

why do you think that is?

[brownjenkins]

The PBS newshour is about as close to unbiased as you get, but they aren't mainstream.

All the others have representatives from both sides, but that doesn't make them unbaised. The "bias" is about what stories they choose to headline, and how much time they spend on certain issues as opposed to others. Fox generally focuses on the conservative slant, while CNN focuses on the liberal slant.

Another way they show bias is by representing both sides, but choosing the more charismatic representative for the side they wish to represent as the "truth".

Why?

Because they are businesses that survive via advertising. By focusing on a certain audience they capture a large portion of those viewers. Especially if they do it in a somewhat polarizing way. The news organizations have discovered that people like to tune into a news program that basically validates their own point of view. And if it does it with a bit of a bite against the other side, all the better.

PBS, by comparision, is often called "boring" because it generally covers both sides equally and, when it does editorial discussions, typically has very level-headed speakers who deal with issues more than spin and dramatics.

It's all good. That is what free speech is about. The only shame is how few people seem to be able to see these things for what they really are.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

The PBS newshour is about as close to unbiased as you get, but they aren't mainstream.

All the others have representatives from both sides, but that doesn't make them unbaised. The "bias" is about what stories they choose to headline, and how much time they spend on certain issues as opposed to others. Fox generally focuses on the conservative slant, while CNN focuses on the liberal slant.

Another way they show bias is by representing both sides, but choosing the more charismatic representative for the side they wish to represent as the "truth".

Why?

Because they are businesses that survive via advertising. By focusing on a certain audience they capture a large portion of those viewers. Especially if they do it in a somewhat polarizing way. The news organizations have discovered that people like to tune into a news program that basically validates their own point of view. And if it does it with a bit of a bite against the other side, all the better.

PBS, by comparision, is often called "boring" because it generally covers both sides equally and, when it does editorial discussions, typically has very level-headed speakers who deal with issues more than spin and dramatics.

It's all good. That is what free speech is about. The only shame is how few people seem to be able to see these things for what they really are.

There are a few high-fives in there for you and I to agree on BJenkins, btw, haven't seen you in a while

I was reading Arthur Rubinstein's autobio awhile back, and he told how when he came to america, the press gave him a few questions, took pictures, and spun a completely untrue account of his journey by boat. Sensationalism, it's never died in the press...

So BB, what other media outlets besides the BBC do you guys have over there? I mean, you have The Times, The Daily Mirror (I know because I've read James Herriot), but are there any other big TV outlets?

[HOBBIT]

Theres Sky News - kind of like MSNBC/CNN.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

Theres Sky News - kind of like MSNBC/CNN.

I've never heard about it before...I guess BBC just hogs up a lot of space, eh?

BTW, should we start a thread for Media discussions?

[HOBBIT]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Alright now people...

how about this Nevada girl who thanked God in her valedictorion speech, and the school principals unplugged the mike on her? The ACLU apperantly didn't jump to the rescue of Free Speech.

On a humorous note, read the third and second to last...of these

Um, the ACLU supports causes like that ALL THE TIME. Stop trying to imply that the ACLU is anti-god or anti-religion – that is complete bull.


A list of recent cases where the ACLU defended various rights to religion. Note that this was posted in 2005 - so there are probably many other more recent cases.
ACLU's Defense of Religious Liberty - article posted 3/2/2005

one involving a Valedictorian:

May 11, 2004: After ACLU of Michigan intervened on behalf of a Christian Valedictorian, a public high school agrees to stop censoring religious yearbook entries.

And if you would be more specific on your Nevada case - like names, dates, etc - maybe we would find that the ACLU was involved. Who knows.

[HOBBIT]

I've only heard of Sky because I watched it when I was in London. :P

Sky News

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

Um, the ACLU supports causes like that ALL THE TIME. Stop trying to imply that the ACLU is anti-god or anti-religion – that is complete bull.


A list of recent cases where the ACLU defended various rights to religion. Note that this was posted in 2005 - so there are probably many other more recent cases.
ACLU's Defense of Religious Liberty - article posted 3/2/2005

one involving a Valedictorian:

And if you would be more specific on your Nevada case - like names, dates, etc - maybe we would find that the ACLU was involved. Who knows.

Maybe it was Michigan...

But, Hobbit...is this list from the ACLU's own website? If so (I've seen it al;ready), I mean...it really isn't that convincing. Small-scale ACLU workings maybe in state-by-state, but the BIG MOMMA, in California or whereever they have their office, they ARE against Religion (except theirs) and God (except them).

I'll look up a link for the Valedictiorian speech in just a sec...

[hectorberlioz]

Ok, this tells the story very dramatically...but it sounds accurate from what I heard on the radio.

http://www.goofigure.com/UserGoofigu...asp?gooID=6607

Sure it's a little biased

EDIT: WorldnetDaily? Thats not a bad source is it?

[HOBBIT]

hectorberlioz back up what you say.
How is the ACLU anti-religion and god? excuse me while I go roll my eyes.

The ACLU isn't a living entity - it is made up of members - real people - with their own real religions. The ACLU isn't some atheistic organization. The ACLU doesn't have "it's own religion" or "its own god" like you have said. That doesn't even make any sense.

I highly doubt that you have "seen it all" in regards to what is on the ACLU website. And because it is on the ACLU website that means the the info is somehow made up? You can verify everything on there by a second source I'm sure.

Maybe by "seen it all" you mean "took a quick glance" ?

The ACLU HQ is in NYC I believe.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

hectorberlioz back up what you say.
How is the ACLU anti-religion and god? excuse me while I go roll my eyes.

I know what you mean about go and rolling your eyes, I've had to do it regularly during my visits here...

The ACLU isn't a living entity - it is made up of members - real people - with their own real religions. The ACLU isn't some atheistic organization. The ACLU doesn't have "it's own religion" or "its own god" like you have said. That doesn't even make any sense.

It doesn't make sense? Thats because I was being sarcastic.
BTW, Hobbit, Nashville's ACLU HQ is not too far from my town, so there is a decent amount of news with them in it.

I highly doubt that you have "seen it all" in regards to what is on the ACLU website. And because it is on the ACLU website that means the the info is somehow made up? You can verify everything on there by a second source I'm sure.

My point about that is that the cherry-pick all the apperantly "pro-religion" cases they've ever had.

Maybe by "seen it all" you mean "took a quick glance" ?

The ACLU HQ is in NYC I believe.

I read most of the "cases" where they supposedly defended people's rights to religion. I've not read the whole novel....that I admit.

BTW, did you go to the link I had above? It's about the Nevada case.

[Butterbeer]

wow, so much to respond to ..so little time (???) ... o little current attention span

so ...it's a fight royal boys and girls ... in da blue corner el presidente' v's (in the green corner ) the owner's brother (is that right?? )

BB goes to get some highly flammable oil and a match ... er, i mean some popcorn...

you wanna me to talk about the media? (mr forte' fer sure)

sure ... best go start yourself a thread tho' ...else mebbe i will ...

[Butterbeer]

da BBC?
blimey, we ain't no bleepin cornish hamlet mate, media is our game and exponentially growing world influence.

days of empire? gone (good riddance) .... with guns and such ....

media?
Rule brittania and her global partners o' course!

US will be a marklet,, and a good one ... but the world looks to UK for media growth in most sectors ...Europe? Our very own liddle plaything ...

whaddya wanta konw?

BTW BJ calls it well - you should have a good idea who is what and where they are (generally) coming from with any media source.

take da BBC - Western, liberal but mainly representative to a degree, essentially non religious with a public interest / broadcast
remit to envelope religion and mutli-faith .... to a degree unbiased (as comparisons with any others go ) ... but essentially representive of western world view in essence.



ITN syndicate, C4, five (both ITN affilaited) many differening spheres within BBC groupings, (massive in itself, BBC radio , interactive, web, on demand, world radio, many non network BBC's, BBC america, BBC east etc etc ...

Influence in Reuters, ASP, growing distribution and Film specialisms, vibrant Indie sector, set for phenomenal growth

many influences in all western media groups, press, ITV network, mutli staelite and cable stations, the one and only publishing sector in the world, burgeoning IPR and rights development and new models...

where ya wanna start?

best BB

[HOBBIT]

Yes, I read the link.

Couldn't find a better source than a place called goo figure? lol

I googled and found some better articles.
District pulls plug on speech June 17th 2006
Group files lawsuit, alleges school officials violated teen's rights July 14th, 2006

Some KEY QUOTES that if you read nothing else read these:

However, Clark County School District officials and an attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union said Friday that cutting McComb's mic was the right call. Graduation ceremonies are school-sponsored events, a stance supported by federal court rulings, and as such may include religious references but not proselytizing, they said They said McComb's speech amounted to proselytizing and that her commentary could have been perceived as school-sponsored.

And

Gary Peck, executive director of the ACLU of Nevada, said McComb's commentary did amount to proselytizing. He said his group supports mentioning God in commencement speeches if the commentary does not constitute preaching.

"We are not talking about a public forum where people have unfettered rights to say whatever they choose," Peck said. "This was a school-sponsored event. The podium should not be turned into a pulpit for the purpose of preaching."

I'd have to read her speech to see if I agree or not. But the school and the ACLU say that her speech was too preachy. She ingored the school's revision so they cut her off.