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02-02-2006, 04:51 PM | #21 | |||||
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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Firstly Haldir said the orcs came from the South: that means, either from Mordor, or Isengard, or even from Dol Guldur, if they crossed the River at the field of Celebrant. OK? Or you think they were from Minas Tirith? Secondly, they were either Sauron's or Saruman's. Gandalf described the ones near the Chamber of Mazarbul as "black uruks of Mordor" Quote:
So my conclusion: they were from Mordor. Olmer, if you state they were from Isengard, could you provide a quote, please? Now did the new troop change the balance of forces in Moria? And were they sent there in relation with the Fellowship? Quote:
So between the summer and the winter 3018, the Moria garrison was noticeably reinforced. It might be either connected with Gollum, or with the news of the Ring Quest. Considering the fact that the attacking orc in the Mazarbul fight went directly and unerringly for Frodo, I believe the latter. And then: Elladan and Elrohir were in Lorien, in late October-November 3018. Why didn't they bring back the news of the great troop of orcs coming to Moria? Because they didn't. Gandalf has no idea of the situation in Moria: Quote:
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Apart from that, recall that the Witch-King had previously laid siege to Rivendell (1409) and, although he had all the army of Angmar with him, still he failed to take it. You think by 3018 he had developed a severe nazgul amnesia? Could he hope to assail Rivendell with a troop of vagabonds collected in Ettenmoors?, Here is my "modicum of silliness" Last edited by CrazySquirrel : 02-02-2006 at 05:02 PM. |
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02-02-2006, 04:53 PM | #22 |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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Sorry, this post is meant to overcome the new page bug
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02-06-2006, 06:29 AM | #23 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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My answer to the question - why did the Fellowship stay so long in Rivendell: Frodo and the other Hobbits needed to regain their strength. Not only their physical strength, but something much more important. They needed to build up their inner strength to withstand the power of the Ring.
You could ask the same question about Lórien. Why did they stay so long there? I think the answer is the same - Rivendell and Lórien had qualities that provided a healing and strenghtening of the spirit of anyone residing there.
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02-06-2006, 05:59 PM | #24 | |
Elf Lord
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It is also, IMO, figuratively important that the burden for the destruction of the Ring is taken on by non-Calaquendi. For once the Ring was destroyed, their power diminished, and the Dominion of Men was to begin. Which brings me to this Galadriel conspiracy theory. If she really wanted the Ring, here's a minor flaw in the theory: she didn't take it when it was offered! But one can propose several good reasons why the Ring should pass through Lorien en route to the Fire:
Last edited by The Gaffer : 02-06-2006 at 06:03 PM. |
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02-07-2006, 02:48 AM | #25 | ||||||
Elven Warrior
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02-08-2006, 11:19 AM | #26 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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skipping through this-if it was said already I apologise.
why did they stay so long?
..."such was the virtue of the land of Rivendell that soon all fear and anxiety was lifted from their minds. The future, good or ill, was not forgotten, but ceased to have any power over the present. ......taking pleasure with every meal and in every word and song.....so the days slipped away....... All that has been said about what others were doing is fine but I think the above captures the reason for The Fellowship staying so long.
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02-10-2006, 07:51 PM | #27 | |
Elven Warrior
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02-10-2006, 10:36 PM | #28 |
Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation
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And of course it was because of a plot convenience for Tolkien: so that they could depart on Christmas! Which I believe was very intentional, considering his symbolism.
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02-11-2006, 01:40 AM | #29 | |
Magnificent Master of Buckland
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Why did the Fellowship stay so long in Rivendell?
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But it is the way of my people to use light words at such times and say less than they mean. We fear to say to much. It robs us of the right words when a jest is out of place. -Meriadoc Brandybuck Is there anything I can do that wouldn't inconvenience me?.-Adrian Monk Hogan: What's a definate factor that we can count on? Newkirk: We don't know what we're doing. Do you wanna split a pineapple? -Shawn Spencer |
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02-13-2006, 02:08 AM | #30 | |||||||
Elven Warrior
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2) I'm sure she suggested it, such an important task should have a Maia attached to it if possible, and since all the other wizards had proven incapable of carrying out their mission, Gandalf's inclusion was logical 3) Gandalf's statement about not counting him in just yet says nothing about his eagerness. In fact you will recall that just before that bit you quote, Gandalf explicitly says, "Someone said that intelligence was needed. I think that I shall go with you." That seems to me to explicitly state his INTENT. And this was before the scouts were even sent out much less had been to Lorien and Galadriel. Quote:
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02-27-2006, 04:49 PM | #31 | ||||||||||||||||
Elven Warrior
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Second, "not very numerous" depends on how you count and your perspective. That "not very numerous" number was enough to take care of Balin and company, and so the same number would have been able to take care of 9 walkers, esp. since 4 were hobbits. So "not very numerous" were numerous enough to track the 9 once they were aware of them, to deal with 30 dwarves or so, and to keep Moria from Sauron's enemies: and so indeed may be considered " a great troop" from another perspective. Since Tolkien didn't finish or polish this, we've no idea what his final opinions would have been. Third, "servants of Sauron" is a general descriptor and hardly means that they had been specifically sent there by Sauron or that they had strung telephone wires to Mordor to reach out and touch him. Quote:
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Last edited by Forkbeard : 03-05-2006 at 06:44 PM. Reason: moderator request |
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03-04-2006, 01:25 PM | #32 | ||
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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Last edited by azalea : 03-04-2006 at 07:24 PM. Reason: remainder of post was inappropriate for open forum -- azalea |
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03-04-2006, 02:46 PM | #33 |
Elven Warrior
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[QUOTE=CrazySquirrel]Incorrect. Here is the quote you are not aware of:[/
[QUOTE] No, I'm aware of the quote and note that it took place BEFORE 1409 and that it is reported as "it is said..." rather than being an actual, reported event. After all, if the hobbits are sitting in the house of Elrond and basing the information in the Red Book that becomes Appendix A on records there, one would think that we'd have more than a "it is said that..." and that such an event, the first time since SA 1701 and the expulsion of Sauron from Eriador had occurred just might have a mention in the Tale of Years? But it doesn't. So I put little store by a "it is said..." statement that has no confirmation anywhere else in the text. [Rest of post edited by Azalea] Last edited by azalea : 03-06-2006 at 10:45 AM. Reason: off topic |
03-07-2006, 03:51 AM | #34 | ||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Who was the strange orc who wounded Frodo with the spear? He is not Moria’s ork. Expertly dodging Boromir’s and Aragorn’s blows, he went straight not for Merry, Pippin or Sam, but for the Ringbearer? ”With a thrust of his huge hide shield he turned Boromir’s sword and bore him backwards…Diving under Aragorn’s blow with the speed of striking snake he charged into the Company and thrust with his spear straight at Frodo.”(FOTR,”The bridge of Khazad-Dum).. Seemed he had an information which other orcs did not have: an information about a certain halfling, carrying something important, and the order to destroy this certain halfling. . This warrior’s skillfulness, bravery and readiness to meet the death in order to achieve a given directive, ask for respect , and , also, for an implication that he had a lot of practice in combat , contrary to disorganized and unskilled orcs of Moria. This Orc-warrior differs from his Moria’s orcs followers as a wolf from toy dogs , who cowardly “clustered in the doorway” and “fled howling" at the first sight of defeat . Considering above mentioned, it looks like this is the one of Saruman’s ambassadors. What did they do in Moria? Was they persuading to join Isengard’s army? Negotiating of military alliance? I think that this officer of Isengard’s army was sent to Moria with a specific order, and very possible that the whole attack on the Fellowship was provoked and orchestrated under the guidance of the few emissaries of Saruman the Wise. Of course, according to Gandalf’s words there were also some “black Uruks from Mordor”, but since they did not differ too much in appearance with Uruk-hai from Isengard, it's very possible that Gandalf mistakenly took the Isengarders for Uruks of Mordor. Sauron did not know which one out of four hobbits is a Ringbearer. Saruman, on the other hand, had “many ways of learning the news “, and through his spies without difficulty might find out a full description of the Ringbearer. Quote:
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"A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it." Quote:
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On another hand, Galadriel, seems, had Istari under her command. "I it was who first summoned the White Council, an if MY designs had not gone amiss, it would have been governed by Gandalf the Grey.."(The Fellowhip of the Ring). SHE summoned the most powerful Elves and Maiar to the council. SHE contemplated the scheme of what to do with the Ring. And SHE desided on who will execute her plan. Quote:
Last edited by Olmer : 03-07-2006 at 12:00 PM. |
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03-07-2006, 11:57 AM | #35 | |
Elf Lord
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Even knowing with certainty that Frodo might fail in his unbearable for a little hobbit quest, he did not volunteer to accompany Frodo at the Council, Sam did. And later after that he was STILL THINKING should he go with company, or not, instead of simply saying :"I will go, because my expertise would be very much needed." As about his intent, he, probably, thought that he could pull-off the same arrangement with the Fellowship as he managed to do with Thorin's group. |
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04-02-2006, 08:11 PM | #36 | |||
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I don't know why Gandalf wasn't eager to go. Wasn't he Sauron's enemy in Middle-earth? What better way to foil Sauron than to help destroy the One Ring?
However, recall the scene on Caradrhas where he lights a fire for the freezing Fellowship ( ) with magic and says unhappily, "If that isn't a better way to say 'Gandalf was here' than I don't know what is." (Or something.) I think Gandalf was reluctant to go because his presence, if discovered, would tip off Sauron and/or agents of Mordor that this activity, whatever it was, was worth keeping an Eye on. () That was the last thing that the Fellowship would need! Quote:
However, Elrond should have known better. He had the big picture and knew of the urgency of the quest. Frodo in Hobbiton didn't really know if drastically and almost irrevercably leaving his home was the right course of action.
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