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01-31-2006, 06:25 AM | #21 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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I think Denethor, as a true High Numenorean had mind-reading powers and read some Pippin's thoughts. Gandalf implied as much.
The palantiri are not the devices made for mind-reading. It is but a means of communication, like cellphone or, more precisely, like a video-conference. If users have own mind-reading powers (like Sauron) they can do that via palantiri. That is how I see it. |
01-31-2006, 06:26 AM | #22 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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New page-bug!
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01-31-2006, 06:27 AM | #23 | ||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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And still being under age he wouldn't have been put in charge of important things yet, there would always have been someone who would be able to make those decisions instead of him. So he never had to show he could be mature, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't have possessed already some maturity before he needed it in Minas Tirith.
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01-31-2006, 12:59 PM | #24 | |
Elven Warrior
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01-31-2006, 02:10 PM | #25 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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I believe the keywords here are "against its will". Every mind can be closed. But the natural state of the mind is openness. Gandalf, surely closed his mind to Denethor, but, I believe, Pippin's untrained mind was open by default.
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01-31-2006, 02:28 PM | #26 | ||
Elven Warrior
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Nevertheless, there seems to be just a family trait (shared by Faramir) in understanding others better than a normal person would - not a better mind reading faculty in itself: Quote:
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01-31-2006, 03:13 PM | #27 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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02-01-2006, 01:08 PM | #28 | |
Elven Warrior
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Last edited by Landroval : 02-01-2006 at 01:09 PM. |
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02-01-2006, 04:45 PM | #29 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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It would have been a logical fallacy if the fact that Faramir and Denethor both had heightened perception of other people's minds were taken out of the context of all the Tolkien's world.
Yes, the fact that both Mr. Smith and Mr. Smith Junior have a good hearing, doesn't imply that they are the last remnants of a special people characterized by an extremely acute hearing. More likely it is a family treat. But if we consider all that is written about the High Numenoreans in general, Elendil, Isildur, Elendur, Aragorn etc., as well as Faramir and Denethor, in particular, it is a sound interpretetion IMHO. Quote:
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In a way, yes, it is a family trait, as reading the HOME (Peoples of ME) one concludes that the line of the Stewards also descended from Elendil - but not by the partilineal descent, it seems. And Aragorn and Denethor & sons are the only pure-blood Numenoreans we meet in LOTR. I have no time now to seek for more quotes, sorry. I hope you understand what I mean. |
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02-05-2006, 08:37 PM | #30 | |
The Buckleberry Fairy/Captain
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But here in Minas Tirith, he cannot any longer avoid the danger that he is in. On top of that, he is separated from his best friend. And whistling in the dark really only helps if you're not completely on your own. I get the feeling that both Merry and Pippin could face anything in the world, so long as he had the support of the other. Each feels the loss of the other keenly. [edit: so have we decided that Denethor was not using the palantir to spy on pippin? I have another question on that subject. is it safe to assume that nothing Denethor sees through the palantir is secret from Sauron? Also, I don't know much about the seeing stones, but I'd always assumed that it was a communication device, and that it allowed to you see distant places. but not that it allowed to to eavesdrop on conversations. Seems like if it allowed you to do that, Sauron had only to listen in on the Council of Elrond (or really any of the significant moments in the story) for him to get an idea of where the ring was headed.
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02-06-2006, 02:17 PM | #31 |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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You are quite right about the Palantiri. There is an essay about them in the Unfinished Tales.
No eavesdropping is possible, they don't transmit sound- only thoughts of the two users. |
02-09-2006, 02:46 AM | #32 |
The Buckleberry Fairy/Captain
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Thanks for lending your expertise, CrazySquirrel. I think we've established that the Denethor was not using his palantir to spy on Gandalf and Pippin, which means that he had others reporting to him (members of Beregond's company, or others whom Pippin encountered), and also, as Gandalf tells Pippin, he is surmising much even from the little that Pippin tells. which is a much different thing than actual mind-reading.
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