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06-19-2005, 02:48 AM | #21 | |
Elven Warrior
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Finally - I've caught up with my reading. I love your interesting discussion points, Forkbeard!
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I suppose you could say that the Old Forest near Buckland is a parallel for Fangorn Forest. Both forests are the subject of "larger than life" stories and legends that are told in an oral tradition to young children. That is the difference, I surmise, between Gondor and Rohan - Rohan relies on an oral tradition for its tales and history. These then become altered and exaggerated - tales of the ents, Galadriel, hobbits etc. Gondor, on the other hand, relies on accurate history - recorded on parchment. In addition, in a sort of convoluted way... These oral tales are indicative of the individual culture of Rohan - and links them to their ancestors in the North (by their folk tales about the hobbits)
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06-19-2005, 03:09 AM | #22 | ||
Elven Warrior
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06-19-2005, 03:17 AM | #23 | |
Elven Warrior
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The frantic race across the plains of Rohan, the interception by Gandalf, the Helm's Deep interlude are all a part of the journey that Aragorn as a person is going through in this part of the book. Meeting Merry and Pippin at Isenguard is the end of this sub-story. Aragorn needed to find that closure by remaining with the hobbits and talking about all the events that had occurred. Doubtless both Gandalf and Treebeard were aware of this.
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06-19-2005, 03:28 AM | #24 | |||
Elven Warrior
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I love the "wise sayings" in the earlier chapters where Gandalf and Theoden are speaking of Eomer. Quote:
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Maybe we should start a list of the proverbs and wise sayings that we encounter throughout the book. It would be great to analyse them for their meanings. Anyway, that's all from me!
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06-22-2005, 01:05 PM | #25 | ||
Elf Lord
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In LOTR he seems to be showing how genuine wisdom can be passed down the generations in the form of folklore and legends. In LOTR, many of these little nuggets are very cleverly worked, such as the "come athelas" rhyme, when Gandalf berates the Master Healer: Quote:
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06-22-2005, 01:11 PM | #26 | |
Elf Lord
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My mind may be muddled with age, but IIRC, although Aragorn lays claim to his title at Theoden's gates, he is not treated as "royalty" as such by the Rohirrim, and Theoden is very clear that he is his own master throughout (e.g. riding out from the Hornburg at dawn). Further, Treebeard certainly wouldn't know him from Adam. I guess that the main reason for their discussion would be what to do with Saruman, and therefore Aragorn would have no particular reason to be invited. |
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06-22-2005, 01:26 PM | #27 | |
Elf Lord
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09-19-2005, 11:44 AM | #28 | ||||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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But you have to hand it to the little guy: he does manage to make you long for a peek in Aglarond yourself! He waxes more lyrical about his caves than an Elf does over intriging forests! That's not a sight you see often. Gimli is obviously a Dwarf with strong passions. In a later chapter Gandalf describes Gimli's description of the caves sufficient for even the most curious Hobbit. High praise. Quote:
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01-07-2006, 02:20 AM | #29 | ||||
"The Bomb"
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I finally made it. I had been assigned this analysis, but real life called. (Stupid life.) You did a great job on short notice, Forkbeard! Thanks for that. In fact, I probably couldn't have thought of so many and such good discussion points. After a week away from the moot it took me months, apparently, to finally catch up and put my mind to these chapters.
Today I'll address things already touched upon that I feel are related. I might be back tomorrow. Quote:
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BTW, this quality in them (saying nothing unless it's helpful) is something I really admire and strive for. I think it's a main reason for Gandalf being my favorite character, and I always identify it as that gleam in the eyes of someone wisened by their life experience. In school, I'm actually famous or something for practicing this. I barely speak, unless to significantly contribute to a conversation or to help someone out in some way. It's given me a "knightly," "wise," and "noble" reputation, something very uncommon but IMO downright awesome. Quote:
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01-07-2006, 02:50 AM | #30 |
"The Bomb"
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Now on a separate note, regarding Tolkien's hints toward mechanization being the bringer of evil and destruction to our world. My memory is foggy on this. I know that JRR Tolkien and CS Lewis made a pact at one point to each write trilogies in which they sneak Christian themes to the masses who'd read them. CS Lewis went on to write the Space Trilogy, but halfway through I think he abandoned the idea of being subtle. Was LotR Tolkiens side of that deal?
Regardless, I think that his main intention all along was to make the evil of the machine a main theme here, but he never wanted to emphasize it. Instead, he'd trust some reader to pick up on it and wonder about it, and inevitably and ultimately come to the same conclusions that he did himeself a hundred years ago. Which IMO is the best and most enjoyable literary technique ever. It works on so many more people. To be obvious like Lewis turns a lot of people off right away, might go right over their heads, or may not address enough of their opposing points to be convicing; whereas Tolkien will get you thinking, about, say, how the gathering of armies foreshadow doom for the one gathering them, and then will lead you right into thinking of how that relates to our own world, and inevitably thinking about the histories of war and the direction of modern politics and whatnot till you realise, on your own, "you know what, I'm opposed to war." That was his genius, because a conclusion that a reader comes to that way is bound to become a deep, lasting opinion. I admit I'm rambling and I know that this is the reason any mooter appreciates Tolkien. I felt I had to verbalize it though. Isn't his influence just awesome? And what author could compare with that? I've been reading Heart of Darkness, and Joseph Conrad is subtle in the very same way, and I love it, but his writing just isn't half as good or multifacted.
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01-07-2006, 05:56 AM | #31 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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I don't think he conciously did bring Christian themes in LoTR. Or lets say more accurately: If he did so, he was very subtle about it. The idea that I always had, was that LoTR wouldn't have been written if the readers (and publishers) didn't demand "more hobbits" from Tolkien. But since you can see the writing style change somwhat from A long-expected party onwards, from the Hobbitesque style to LoTR's own style, Tolkien evidently didn't just want to write about hobbits after a few chapters. In a way I always see LoTR as a testament of Tolkien's mind, but not one that was written fully knowing. LoTR holds all the elements and ideals that were dear to Tolkien. LoTR, in my opinion, tells you more about the way Tolkien thought than merely being a show case for Christian themes he valued.
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01-13-2006, 01:05 AM | #32 | |
"The Bomb"
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Yesterday I suddenly remembered some more of the details of that Lewis-Tolkien deal. The plan was that they would write trilogies that would complement each other, one about space, one about time, both with sneaky Christian undertones. Lewis obviously wrote the "Space Trilogy," and Tolkien barely began his time trilogy before deciding that he could get the same themes across in another, better way. He never went through with it. I found out about it through Wikipedia IIRC, and they were inspecific as to what else he had in mind. I suspect he wasn't sure himself, but the themes certainly did shine through in LotR.
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Could it be that one path to enlightenment leads through insanity? Last edited by Bombadillo : 01-13-2006 at 01:07 AM. |
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