I'm writing an essay on relativism in LOTR

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by BeardofPants


Can you say that anyone has freewill? AI aside, I don't think you can really impinge the idea of freewill upon any organism.

IMpinge?


Fortunately, Tolkien pretty much tells us that free will exists in his universe.

In fact I htink I remember him having some doubts about this very subject, the nature of evil...

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Anduril
Unless we can agree that the actions (causes) attributed to certain beings do not apply to (or fall within) Iluvatar's common goal concept, evil IMO does not exist.

Does Iluvatar then "move in mysterious ways?" I doubt Melkor believed himself evil, just "different", at first. When he sought to destroy that which he did not create, his malevolence should be regarded as evil, if the word is to have any meaning within the context of the works of JRRT and this discussion. The difference otherwise would just be a matter of asthetics and POV (as it is more inclined to be in the human experience).

[Andúril]

When he sought to destroy that which he did not create, his malevolence should be regarded as evil, if the word is to have any meaning within the context of the works of JRRT and this discussion.

But if his malevolence was intended by Iluvatar, then he was not acting against Iluvatar's will, which in turn renders him unqualified for the "Evil" label.

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
I don't think that the concept of evil works very well in the absence of free will.

The orcs only had free will some of the time.

No, I htink it's more along the lines of they could choose how evil to be, or what kind of evil, or how to torture you, but they really couldn't grasp the concept of altruism. It wasn't part of their "program".

When morgoth fixed his will upon the orcs, they could literally feel it. He actually overode thier free will in some instances. So are the orcs evil, or are the merely being forced to do something?

Anothe instance of this- when the ring went into the fire, sauron's orcs lost the will to fight. They threw down thier weapons and got slaughtered- is that evil? I would say not.

Ahh the good old days.

I always interpreted it as more of a berserker rage. Where they recieved energy, and an unwaverng will. Driven by that will they would recklessly run themselves right upon the enemy, with absolutely no fear.

When the ring went into the fire, the servants of Sauron were dazed and confused. Much like a berserker might be if his rage suddenly vanished. I don't think it was because they were suddenly incapable of taking action. I also don't think they threw down their weapons and stood there trying to surrender, but rather dropped them when they turned to flee.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Anduril
But if his malevolence was intended by Iluvatar, then he was not acting against Iluvatar's will, which in turn renders him unqualified for the "Evil" label.

But Iluvatar was created by Tolkien so there is a layer of design above.

Your logic is there, but the story is told in the rigid framework of good versus evil.

If this was the thread who's name shall not be mentioned I would quote, "...in principle, the nonexistence of..." Iluvatar "...for the obvious reason that His existence would imply that He was indifferent, wicked, or cruel" and therefore did NOT exist. But, he's in the books so he does exist... in the book.

[Blackheart]

Odd that one should be saddened by the fruition of one's plans. Yet that's just the impression Eru gives at Melkor's rebellion.

Of course I suppose you could continue to split hairs by saying it was an act

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Blackheart
Odd that one should be saddened by the fruition of one's plans. Yet that's just the impression Eru gives at Melkor's rebellion.

Of course I suppose you could continue to split hairs by saying it was an act

Yes, it seems that he could have "unmade" Melkor when he started trouble, but he was a "child" of Iluvatar... a prodigal son

[Blackheart]

Well that's what happens when you stir free will into your easy bake kits.

And for some odd reason, all the supreme creators seem to be deists... "I've set everything in place, lets watch it all unfold"

Maybe it's like that prime directive thingie

Or too much freewill in the mix....

[BeardofPants]

... Or they like sitting back and watching the resultant chaos...

Gladiators, anyone?

[Wulažg]

Without some difference the whole world thing would be pretty boring, true...

one doesn't necessarily have to take it that far though...

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
... Or they like sitting back and watching the resultant chaos...

Gladiators, anyone?

Yep, if I was god that's pretty much what I would do meddle and tinker a bit, rest a bit, kick the anthill... WHEE!!!

Nanites would seem to be easier to mend then say, AIDS, since one should have the blueprints. But what would the Indians and Pakis do if they had them right now?

[Blackheart]

Nanites? In a reletavism thread?

[Blackheart]

Hrmmm... an example of why you shouldn't go back and clean out your subscribed threads....