01-21-2005, 04:29 AM | #1 |
Fëanorophobic
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Religion and Individualism
For my English class, we were working on a German novel called Demian by Herman Hesse. This novel invited us "not to consider prohibited anything the soul desires" and to find our own morality since "evil is always changing". We were discussing the novel one day and one of my classmates said that he thought that people who follow religion just choose the easy way out. IOW, they wait for religion to teach them morals instead of finding them out for themselves. His comment seems to suggest a view that following religion makes you less of an individual, that (to quote Bop's sig.) "morality is the herd instinct in the individual". Now, I completely refuse this reasoning, but I just wanted to know what you guys think about it. To what extent can religion and individualism co-exist? How far does it apply to your religion; or, if you have no religion, what is your opinion on the matter?
Last edited by Beren3000 : 01-21-2005 at 11:00 AM. |
01-21-2005, 04:38 AM | #2 |
Elf Lord
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Excellent topic, sir.
Personally, I kind of agree with the idea (though I am clear that many religious people are not doing this), but that is probably because I agree that morality etc come from ourselves and not from any deity. Another aspect to the question is how much individualism is valued within a specific religion and how that affects our culture. As we know, the Reformation challenged the hierarchical orthodoxy of the Catholic Church and helped lead to the rise of individualism in the West. Finally we've got the question of how religion is in fact a very effective means of transmitting "moral knowledge" and ensuring that we all behave ourselves. Maybe we're not ready as a species for truly individual morality (though personally I think that we are). |
01-21-2005, 07:51 AM | #3 | |
Fëanorophobic
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Just a few points:
-I'm not personally against the idea of individual morality, but IMO, it doesn't rule out the existence of evil. There is such a thing as BAD, so if you try to universalize individual morality, the immediate result will be the abolition of all constitution and the "bad" people will have a field day. Quote:
More later, I gtg now. |
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01-21-2005, 08:24 AM | #4 |
Elf Lord
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Well I guess we'll have to agree to differ about evil.
But how would "universalising individual morality" lead to the abolition of all constitution? My view about individual morality is not a prescription but description: an opinion based on observation and thinking. Individual morality is, IMO, a fact of life and it hasn't led to "abolition of all constitution. |
01-21-2005, 10:56 AM | #5 |
The Intermittent One
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nice topic, beren, best let Brownie, Rian, Inked, Lief, Lizra and Nurvi know about it, then we will have some excellent discussion
in my opinion, morality is individuality, you define your concepts personally, howerver, you may draw on a religious context if necessary, such as i base my belief system on that of the teachings of the buddha. |
01-21-2005, 10:59 AM | #6 | |||
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Quote:
Quote:
EDIT: Cross-post with LCoU Quote:
Last edited by Beren3000 : 01-21-2005 at 11:04 AM. |
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01-21-2005, 10:59 AM | #7 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Quote:
Whether you believe in a god or not - your morality is strongly influenced by the Judeo-Christian principals if you live in the west. This is the culture that is predominate here. That is why In the US or in Europe - peopel don't throw acid on a woman for looking at a man or having sex out of wedlock. While in other parts of the world - it's condoned. Society - whether it's through religion or through secular laws is solely what defines morality. If we condoned cannibolism tomorrow - inititially - because of the culture - people would still not feel comfortable eating another human being. But as time wore on - the morality would change because more people would find it acceptable as the old belief gave way to the new. Whether you like it or not - it's the group (society) that defines morality - not the individual.
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01-21-2005, 11:06 AM | #8 | |
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Quote:
Last edited by Beren3000 : 01-21-2005 at 11:07 AM. |
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01-21-2005, 11:11 AM | #9 | |
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Quote:
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01-21-2005, 11:16 AM | #10 | |
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01-21-2005, 11:30 AM | #11 |
Elf Lord
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Well, even if one chooses to follow a religion, I've yet to meet one person who believes in everything exactly the same way as another (with the exception of cults). Take Christianity, for example (since it;s an easy example and I know it fairly well):
The Bible can be taken as completely literal, somewhat literal, somewhat symbolic or mostly symbolic. Should the apocrypha be included? Was this line accurately translated? Was Jesus preaching about love or the axe? There are as many religions/faiths as there are people in the world.
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01-21-2005, 11:36 AM | #12 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Beren3000 : 01-21-2005 at 11:39 AM. |
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01-21-2005, 11:36 AM | #13 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Quote:
My first post in this thread cross posted with your above it where we had basically said the same thing.
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01-21-2005, 11:41 AM | #14 | |
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01-21-2005, 11:50 AM | #15 | |
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Quote:
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01-21-2005, 11:56 AM | #16 | |
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Quote:
ie it is possible for one to encompass the other, and vice versa, it is just a human rarity |
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01-21-2005, 12:01 PM | #17 | |
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01-21-2005, 12:03 PM | #18 |
The Intermittent One
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neither is the 'truth', it is merely the perception of the one or the other that people view as 'truth', which is, more often than not, clouded by religion.
hope this clears my point up a bit |
01-21-2005, 12:07 PM | #19 | |
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01-21-2005, 12:43 PM | #20 |
Elf Lord
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Since this a Tolkien forum, I oppose the LoTR to Hesse. Draw your own conclusions, but "good and evil have not changed". Morality is not relativistic nor societal, it overarchs societies. Else, why oppose Sauron?
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