12-31-2004, 01:35 PM | #41 |
Elven Warrior
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I don’t at all agree the Nazgul were “driven off” by Aragorn and the hobbits on Weathertop.
Their plan was to approach, command the ring bearer to show himself, stab him, then depart. At this point Frodo would have willingly gone with them. Tolkien tells us through Aragorn that they did not expect to be resisted, but this is a reference to Frodo’s resistance (“More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth”) not anything anyone else did. The only flaw in their plan was underestimating the ring bearer which will become a theme throughout the book. “they are only waiting because they think their purpose is almost accomplished and that the ring cannot fly much further. I fear, Sam, that they believe your master has a deadly wound that will subdue him to their will” Even after the attack Tolkien is trying to show that what will save them is a second underestimation of Frodo, this time his ability to withstand the wound. The Nazgul could have got the ring at this point in the story had it not been for these underestimations of Frodo. Aragorn played no role in the initial stroke missing Frodo’s heart, and the fact he was unable to stop that attack when he was so near to Frodo certainly means he would be unable to stop another attempt. The Nazgul however, deem a second attempt unecessary. I think this was intentional on Tolkien’s part for thematic reasons. They did not lack “the power” to take the ring, rather, they lacked the understanding that strength can reside in what appears weak. Last edited by squinteyedsoutherner : 12-31-2004 at 04:24 PM. |
12-31-2004, 04:48 PM | #42 |
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i think early in LoTR there is a brief mention of 'Black Breath' which is that they could kill/stun a person just by breathing on them
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01-01-2005, 10:31 AM | #43 |
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I think it's a little more complex than that, if it weren't then the orcs would have constantly suffered with it. It wouldn't really immediatly kill them either. Faramir suffered with it and that with a Southron dart only bought him near death after about a day.
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01-01-2005, 05:28 PM | #44 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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I suspect that the Black Breath was a kind of poisonous effusion that affected a mortal that was actually fighting with one of them, which is why the Orcs were not said to be affected. Merry was not touched by it, that night in Bree. I think he passed out from pure terror, though this is not mentioned.
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01-02-2005, 01:29 AM | #45 |
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Black Breath was is a descriptive phase, not an actual indication that the breath of the nazgul was deadly in and of itself... Though if they did breathe it probably smelled pretty nasty...
Any living thing was affected by their presence.. orcs to. At the very least it gave them the willies... It was more of a spiritual affliction than anything physical. A direct assault on the spirit.
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01-02-2005, 05:18 AM | #46 |
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Yes. That's certainly the best picture of it, if you ask me.
Remember that the greatest power that the Nazgul had was fear - well, fear can have a crippling physical effect under the right circumstances, and a sufficient fear stimulus can have a lasting effect. I suspect that, as Blackheart said, the Nazgul were capable of a direct attack upon the spirit (as they are, of course, spirits themselves). But what was the purpose of this spiritual attack? Well, clearly it doesn't immediately kill the victim - and it doesn't seem to have physical effects (the way the Morgul-knife did). So what was it? Probably a vector for creating fear - assaulting the spirit in order to induce a state of horror and panic. This experience could have been so traumatic as to have left the victim comatose (or nearly so). Kind of a supernatural PTSS.
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01-02-2005, 02:12 PM | #47 |
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I think actually the direct result was to sever the spirit from the body. Under certain circumstances.. that would lead to the victim becomeing a wraith themselves....
Whether the actual emotional vector was fear, or despair, or a direct "psychic" assault might vary from victim to victim... Cerrtainly the "black breath" took at least two forms, and maybe more, depending on the victims weakness... But the end result would have been the same. Death, or wraithhood under a specific set of circumstances... The victims were subject to dreams of madness, voices, and visions of despair. If oyu read up on the actual taking of the men who became the nazgul, this is actually very similar to how Sauron broke down their wills using the rings they were given. it's like they had become extensions of their rings, able to infect someone with the very vulnerability that caused their own downfall...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
01-05-2005, 10:13 AM | #48 |
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Something to consider,
During the confontation of the wictch king and Gandalf at the gates of Minas Tirith, I have oft though? Gandalf V the Witch King? I go for Gandalf, I mean after all, he did roll a Balrog, so what is a Nazgul in comparioson? Oh gee, did I spark off a discussion?
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01-05-2005, 11:42 AM | #49 |
Elf Lord
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Too close to call... The witch king was specifically prepared to face Gandalf, after all.
Eowyn was a nasty surprise...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
01-05-2005, 03:48 PM | #50 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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I don't know if we can deduce that the mere presence of one of the Nazgûl would be enough to sever the bond between the victim's spirit and his/her body absent a defeat or at least physical contact. Éowyn, Merry, and Faramir were struck down, to be sure, but Faramir was said to be struck with a dart that came from above, and Éowyn (and Merry) struck the physical body of the Witch-King, a thing that is said by Aragorn to be perilous in and of itself. Do you think that the concept of the Black Breath could be extended to that? I do.
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01-05-2005, 03:54 PM | #51 |
Elf Lord
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Even the mere presence of the nazgul overhead affected many of the troops at minas tirith. Lots of people had the black breath.
One can logically assume that the effect would be more pronounced with closer proximity...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
01-07-2005, 07:21 PM | #52 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Yes, many in the siege of Minas Tirith were struck down, but they were fighting, not just passersby.
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01-07-2005, 08:47 PM | #53 |
Elf Lord
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They were fighting yes, but they weren't fighting nazgul. They were fighting under the shadow of the nazgul.
That's as close as you can get to being a "passerby" in the middle of a battle.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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