12-22-2001, 07:34 PM | #1 |
Elven Lady of Speed-posting
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physical description of elves?
Yesterday at school, I was having this really fun argument with my only Tolkien-reading friend. It was about....yep...elves! She seemed to think that all elves were the short hairy creatures from dungeons and dragons. I tried to tell her otherwise, and we ended up arguing about this for about an hour,looking up references from LOtR, which I just happened to have along with me. The surprising thing was, I couldn't find much. So I just wondered, are there any good physical description in any of the books? I NEED to prove my dissilusioned friend wrong! (And supremely annoy her in the process...haha.)
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12-22-2001, 08:43 PM | #2 |
Hobbit
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on page 256 of fotr, Glorfindel is described as having "golden hair flowed shimmering in the wind of his speed. To Frodo it appeared that a white light was shining through the form..."
Another description of Glorfindel, "...tall and straight: his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of joy; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was strength." this is in fotr on page 274. hope this helps
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12-22-2001, 10:41 PM | #3 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Appendix F- The Return of the King-Balentine edition
"They were a race high and beautiful, the older children of the world, and among them, the Eldar were as kings, who now are gone: The People of the Great Journey, the People of the Stars. They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finrod; and their voices had more melodies than any mortal voice that now is heard. They were valiant, but the histories of those that returned to Middle-earth in exile was grievous; and though it was in far off days crossed by the fate of the Fathers, their fate is not that of Men. Their dominion passed long ago, and they dwell now beyond the circles of the world, and do not return." From the Silmarillion- Houghtom Mifflin edition "Immortal were the Elves, and their wisdom waxed from age to age, and no sickness nor pestilence brought death to them. Their bodies indeed were of the stuff of Earth, and could be destroyed; and in those days, they were more like to the bodies of Men, since they had not so long been inhabited by the fire of their spirit, which consumes them from within in the courses of time." From The Complete Guide to Middle-earth- By Robert Foster "Elves were the fairest of all earthly creatures, and resembled the Ainur in spirit. They were about six feet tall and somewhat slender, graceful but strong and resistant to the extreams of nature. Their senses, especially of hearing and sight were much keener than those of Men. Elves apparently did not sleep, but rested their minds in waking dreams, or by looking at beautiful things. The Eldar, and perhaps all Elves, could talk directly fromm mind to mind without words." Some people find that Foster may not be exactly on target with some of his info, but I have found him to do just fine. I too hope this is helpful. Last edited by Sister Golden Hair : 12-23-2001 at 12:11 AM. |
12-23-2001, 02:56 AM | #4 |
Sapling
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And may I add that at no time, to my knowledge, were the Elves EVER described as having pointy ears.
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12-23-2001, 01:00 PM | #5 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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12-23-2001, 02:04 PM | #6 |
Elven Warrior
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I think Tolkien made the "leaf-shaped" comment in one of his letters. So, they do have pointy ears, but not ridiculously pointy dagger-like things (as some artists portray them). Instead, think Spock-ears, or perhaps even less pointed than that.
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12-23-2001, 02:50 PM | #7 | |
Elven Warrior
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Re: physical description of elves?
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Anyway, it's not Tolkien to say, what elves are like. They were just his elves. Most known of them all, but still only his. Currently I'm more interested of old elves, celtic ones. Seelie and unseelie courts, Arcadia, the elf-country and all that Those elves have much to do with nature-spirits, dryads, fairies, satyrs and even trolls. All they are elves, sort of. But this is Tolkien-forum and here I respect Tolkiens wiew of elves and I have much hatred towards D&D so I'll stand behind others participated in this thread: You're friend is wrong . |
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12-23-2001, 03:34 PM | #8 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
The reason I have always doubted the pointy ear theory, is because, (here I go again) when Finrod and Beren and the other Elves were stripped of their desguises by Sauron, it says that although their kinds were revealed, he could not determine their names or purposes. According to Tolkien there was no physical difference between Elves and Men. So, how did Sauron determine the difference between Beren and the Elves, since he was the only Man? Michael Martinez says that he only needed to see the light in their eyes to know. |
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12-23-2001, 03:38 PM | #9 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Re: Re: physical description of elves?
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12-23-2001, 05:10 PM | #10 |
Elf Lord
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SGH, in your first post in this topic, where you quoted a passage from the Appendices, it may be noted that in revised editions it reads 'Finarfin', not 'Finrod'.
There is no passage in the LOTR which describes Elves as having leaf-shaped ears. What distinguished them from Men was their fairest faces, the light that shone within them, their bright eyes and their melodious voices. Nor is there any leaf-shaped comment in the Letters. Elves are said to have pointed ears in a somewhat illegible note in The Etymologies, published in The Lost Road and Other Writings. That text belongs to the old mythology and The Book of Lost Tales. What J. R. R. Tolkien did say in The Letters (besides one I like to bring up now and then: 'Elves and Men are biologically the same') was that Hobbits had slightly pointed ears, and were 'well, Elvish'. But Tolkien was addressing American illustrators for the Hobbit, who couldn't have known what Tolkien's Elves looked like. He must have been talking about Shakespeare's Elves, or the Elves of Celtic Mythology.
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12-23-2001, 09:02 PM | #11 | ||
Queen of Nargothrond
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12-24-2001, 01:22 AM | #12 | |||
Elf Lord
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Draw your sword! Whatever pains you can put yourself into, you won't find any remark whatsoever in the LOTR about Elvish ears. You will probably find passages which may imply they had normally shaped ears. But if there was anything in there that mentioned leaf-shaped ears it would have been brought up before. Look in the Index under Elves, it will have a lot of page references. None of them will contain what you're looking for.
One other thing I might mention: 'Gnomes' is used in The Hobbit. The first Elves seen in the romance are of course Gildor's company. Sam knows they're Elves even before he sees them, even before he had ever seen Elves. He knows because of their voices: Quote:
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The meeting with Glorfindel sheds more light on the matter: Quote:
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12-24-2001, 01:46 AM | #13 |
Hoplite Nomad
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galadriel
do you know which letter it was abd EXACTLY what it said? i read somewhere also about leaf shaped ear
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
12-24-2001, 12:03 PM | #14 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Inoldonil, you are right. I can't find it. Where did I get it from. I didn't dream it, did I? I also remember Michael Martinez mentioning "leaf shaped ears".
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12-24-2001, 04:00 PM | #15 |
Elf Lord
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The leaf-shaped ears is in the Etymologies to The Lost Road and Other Writings, under the Las entry. But The Etymologies belong to the old mythos and The Book of Lost Tales.
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12-28-2001, 04:11 AM | #16 |
Sapling
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Thanks Inoldonil for clarifying. I wish P. Jackson had consulted you before doling out the rubber aural extensions.
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12-28-2001, 02:44 PM | #17 |
Enting
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This may be a little late but I thought that Fingolfin and his sons (and their descendants?) also had blonde hair (although for some reason I have something where turgon has black hair). Matter of fact I think the only Noldor "rulers" in ME's first age of the sun, where the sons of Feanor (Apparently blonde is a dominant gene for elves). I’m probably wrong up though.
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12-28-2001, 05:41 PM | #18 |
Elf Lord
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It was Finarfin and his children (Finrod, Angrod, Aegnor and Galadriel) that had the golden hair. Most Elves (among the Noldor and the Teleri alike) were dark haired. It was the Vanyar, 'the Fair' that had hair of yellow or deep gold.
I think blonde hair and pointed ears for Elves is just too 'traditional' or assumed not to be stamped on to Tolkien's Eldar in a movie. Truth is, in the narrative of the LotR it isn't really made clear that blonde hair is rare. Only in the Appendices does Tolkien say that they were dark-haired for the most part. Feanor's hair was black, and all his children had dark hair. The eldest had red-brown hair though, and the two youngest also. This was very rare among the Eldar and came from their mother's side of the family.
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12-29-2001, 06:44 AM | #19 |
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didn't BOTH son's of indis have blonde hair?
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
12-29-2001, 10:19 AM | #20 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Also, IIRC, it says in the Tolkien Companion, that to signify their unusual hair color, their banner was woven in gold upon a blue field. Last edited by Sister Golden Hair : 12-29-2001 at 10:22 AM. |
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