The Lord of the Rings Discussion, Book II, Chapter 2: The Council of Elrond

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

This is an excellent point, and as I said before, there's no solid evidence to say that the messenger was not a Nazgul. Why not trust the Mouth though? He's as loyal as the Nazgul. All your points could also indicate the Mouth of Sauron, so I think we can say we have a hung jury on that one.

I guess I don't see that, Nurvingiel. Where is the Mouth described as having a breath that hisses like snakes, whose presence strikes inexplicable terror into those who stand near, can not make his voice sound fair and has a fell voice? If anything, the description of the Mouth. So while some of the points could apply to the Mouth or another like him, these features seem to me to speak only of the Nazgul.

As for trusting the Mouth, how do we know he was as loyal as a Nazgul and wouldn't be tempted by the Ring? EVERYONE, even Gandalf and Galadriel, though loyal to the Free Peoples and the Valar are tempted by it, and resist the temptation. WOuld the Mouth have so resisted? Saruman didn't.

If the Mouth of Sauron or anyone else tried to master the Ring, Sauron would easily know where it was and take it. He's the true master and only he can control the Ring. Maybe he'd even want someone to attempt this.

I'm not sure that that is true. Bilbo and Frodo frequently used the Ring and Sauron didn't know. And when Frodo puts on the Ring on Amon Hen, is the wearing of the Ring, or the wearing of the Ring on Amon Hen that alerts Sauron? Even then, he can't pinpoint its location. And Tolkien does not say that ONLY Sauron can master it, just that it would take a "large" person to do so, someone perhaps like Gandalf or Galadriel rather than Frodo or Gollum.

And the point of course isn't whether or not the Mouth COULD master the Ring so much as he would be tempted to do so...even Isildur attempted it.

This point is relevant to other parts of this chapter. That is why Boromir's idea was totally shot down. An attempt to use the Ring would be essentially delivering it to Sauron.

I disagree here too: Boromir's idea was shot down because the Ring was evil, none can wield unless they have a great power of their own, and the Ring would corrupt. The Mouth is already "corrupt" and evil, has a great power of his own (like Isildur except that he has long studied "sorcery" under Sauron), he's a very good candidate to try and master the Ring.

FB

[Mrs.Gimli]

Th council of Elrond is one of my favourite parts.I really enjoy the part when Borimir talks.He is so lordly
But my favourite part from that scene is when Gimli talks

[Gordis]

I have just read the tread and could not resist the temptation to participate. Olmer's posts in particular are so interesting and challenging!
So I have to catch up:

I agree that the messenger to Erebor was a nazgul.

I believe that Sauron was paranoid about letting anyone but "his most trusted servants" (the nazgul) handle the ring. And for all he knew Bilbo might have been still in Erebor with the ring. (The messenger asks for the ring or any hints on it). So the messenger was certainly a nazgul. And the description of the messenger who came alone at night fits it perfectly.

I think that Olmer is right in identifying the nazgul as Khamul. Not only Dol Guldur was closer to Erebor than Barad Dur, but also the nazgul was HISSING:

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

It did say that the messenger had a hissing voice, which immediately makes me think of the Nazgûl.

Yes, but not all the nazgul had the hissing voice, the WK's voice for example was described only as "cold", the voice at Crickhollow was "high", the assembled nazgul at the ford ("To Mordor we will take you") were not hissing either. There was only ONE hissing nazgul who "spoke funny". It was Khamul the Easterling Lord of Dol Guldur. He came to Hobbiton and to Maggot (see UT The hunt for the ring). Most likely he was the messenger to Erebor.

Originally Posted by Olmer

If you read my posting "In defense of the Ringwraiths", you probably remember that the Nazguls spent unreasonably long time in the vales of Anduin.Now I think that all this time they used to accompany Khamul on the message delivery. .

No, I think it is not plausible. Firstly the route the nazgul took is described in detail in UT The hunt for the ring.

There is more. In UT we read: "At length they returned... and met messengers from Barad Dur conveying threats from their Master that filled even the Morgul-lord with dismay".

Why would Sauron be so angry if the nazgul went on an errand to Erebor on his orders? No, the nazgul really wasted their time in the vales of Anduin, walking their horses to Gundabad and back again. Nice 1,5 months vacations they had. So Sauron had reasons to be mad.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

If the Mouth of Sauron or anyone else tried to master the Ring, Sauron would easily know where it was and take it. He's the true master and only he can control the Ring. Maybe he'd even want someone to attempt this.

Why then didn't he send some mortal men to find the Shire? Some Dunelandings or some trusted Black Numenoreans? The former might pass for fugitives, while the latter might have posed as rangers. They would have found the Shire much more easily than the nazgul, blind in the daylight and not exactly inspiring confidence to mortals they questioned. No, Sauron was mortally afraid to let ANY MORTAL near the ring. He had to send the nazgul because he believed them to be utterly under control through their nine rings, which he held. Was he right? But that is a question for another tread.

Originally Posted by Olmer

Denethor had a very clear idea what to look for in Imladris.“He would have remembered his father need…He would have brought me a mighty gift” (Denethor, “LOTR”, book III, chapter 4 ) .

Yes, I am also sure that Denethor (a very clever and learned men) has deciphered the prophecy correctly. He has not shared his guesses with anyone, though. He has sent his most trusted son to bring him the Ring.

[Butterbeer]

[QUOTE=Finrod Felagund]Summary

So...this chapter has the least action of almost any other chapter in the Lord of the Rings...it is basically all talk.


The chapter begins with Frodo waking up, taking a walk with Sam and meeting up wih Gandalf and Bilbo.

Then the Council begins.

There are 11 speakers in this chapter:
Bilbo
Gandalf
Frodo
Sam
Elrond
Gloin
Boromir
Aragorn
Legolas
Galdor of the Havens
Erestor
Glorfindel

And in addition 9 more characters are quoted directly
Dain
the Messenger from Mordor
Isildur
Saruman
Radagast
Denethor
Barliman Butterbur
Gwaihir
the Gaffer

Not to mention counless characters who mentioned in detail and in passing


hey! I'm intrigued - can't remember that bit, what was the direct quote from Barliman Butterbur?? really like to know!