03-29-2004, 04:11 PM | #61 | |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
|
Quote:
__________________
"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
|
03-29-2004, 04:34 PM | #62 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Quote:
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
|
03-29-2004, 06:45 PM | #63 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
|
I-rex, you are missing my point it seems. And I'm too tired to explain myself again, so it'll have to wait for another time. BRIEFLY, there are differing theories on human social patterns. To assume that hominids are/were inherently capitalist is making tremendous assumptions. I'm not making any assumptions one way or another - I am merely pointing out that there have been studies which suggest that individualism may not have been that much of a dominant factor in hominids. That's all. ::shrug::
On that note: The prisoner's dilemma
__________________
"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 03-29-2004 at 07:03 PM. |
03-29-2004, 08:58 PM | #65 | |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
|
Quote:
|
|
03-29-2004, 09:47 PM | #66 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
|
Okay. Wanna gang up on I-rex and tickle him mercilessly? Then when he's all helpless, we can take advantage of him, and steal his pants.
__________________
"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
03-29-2004, 11:03 PM | #67 | ||||
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I think we MAY be talking about two things though. Im talking about large scale population trends not primitive small scale ones. Its been noted that when humans gather in small tribes they tend to live much differently from when they reach a certain threshold of population density where social interaction changes dramatically. And capitalism in its purest form was probably not much evident in prehistoric tribal societies but it tends to be a more complex system of interaction so the numbers weren’t in its favor until that point in our prehistory where it proved beneficial (to enough at the expense of others of course). Now, I can think of very few population bases today of any decent size that doesn’t rely on some capitalist TYPE of system to keep its economy pumping and to keep trade flowing within and between populations (and I include even China in that fold actually). And frankly there are very few small scale isolated tribal societies left really. At least compared to the teeming masses within the mass populations all over the world. So when I say “capitalism/altruism” Im talking about capitalism with a lower case “c” really. Not some rigid idealistic use of that term. You could probably use different wording to say the exact same thing Im saying if you find the term capitalist distasteful or troubling. This also brings up the big question of is democracy defined by capitalism. Or vice versa perhaps…Or neither… EDIT: Quote:
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 03-29-2004 at 11:08 PM. |
||||
03-29-2004, 11:38 PM | #68 | |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
|
Quote:
You get his pants and I'll [Edited for PG-13 content] |
|
03-29-2004, 11:44 PM | #69 | |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
|
Quote:
|
|
03-30-2004, 12:46 AM | #70 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
Quote:
But I think to define as 'capitalist' as any system where someone in the population is doing some amount of buying and selling is stretching it too far- you might just as well say the US is a socialist country because of the Tennessee Valley Authority. To call a society capitalist I think you'd have to say that a) the means of production are in private hands AND b) the main mechanism of the economy is the marketplace, with goods and sevices (including land and labour) being freely bought and sold. In most societies throughout history, even if you exclude the tribal level (which covers a good section of those who would have to be included in any discussion of what is 'inherent' in human nature), the predominant economic system was that of peasants bound to the land with an obligation to hand over part of their production in the form of feudal dues/rents/taxes to the upper classes- nothing free about it. The market system was basically peripheral- a few necessities for the peasants, some luxuries for the nobles. There were some exceptions- Athens, Venice, Samarkand- where due to siting on trade routes or some especialy valuable (and easily carried ) product the free-market played a much larger role., but they were not the majority. You could just as easily say socialism, or some form of communitarianism is engrained in human nature.
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 03-30-2004 at 12:49 AM. |
|
03-30-2004, 04:09 AM | #71 | |
The Blobbit
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Kent, England (Not Oxford! ... yet...)
Posts: 1,596
|
Quote:
__________________
Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
|
03-30-2004, 04:28 AM | #72 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: on the boats
Posts: 264
|
It's also the case that you need to have a particular mindset before you can even start thinking of trade, or of being in a place long enough to create goods, or of having the concept of specialisation in what you produce. There are some very complex understandings and thinkings going on just to get to that stage, and although it's very familiar to us now, so much so that it seems natural, I'd suggest that way back in prehistory that wasn't the case at all. That to me puts in great doubt the idea that capitalism was inherent. Or any other -ism come to that. What it does demonstrate in my opinion is that our species has and has developed an immense flexibility of mind and ability to adapt, such that we are able to function under a great number of systems and understandings.
|
03-30-2004, 12:44 PM | #73 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
I like the idea of a pants-driven debating system. A bit like the talking thing they used to pass around in Native American get-togethers. Take your pants off and hold them above your head if you want to say something.
* takes pants off * *debating chamber empties * I agree with everyone, but especially graymouser. - Just because a system is prevalent, that doesn't mean that it's right; - All "capitalist" systems have some sort of central control; it's a question of what's controlled, by whom and to what ends; - Global capitalism has made hay while the sun shone. However, we are turning our inheritance into greenhouse gases and we may find that, 50 years from now, we need a lot more "command economy" style interventions if we want to get by. My generally optimistic nature leads me to believe that humans have intelligence, and ought to be capable to deciding how they run their affairs in a humane and sensible way. By the way, do you American mooters even know what "pants" are? |
03-30-2004, 02:52 PM | #74 | |||||||||
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
|||||||||
03-30-2004, 03:14 PM | #75 |
The Blobbit
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Kent, England (Not Oxford! ... yet...)
Posts: 1,596
|
Hmmm... I've just got into that US English mindset. *Wonders why he didn't leave with everyone else on the Gaf's removal of pants...
Also, I think capitalism was probably inherant in man. I mean the inherant desire for fairness is going to make primative people want some kind of payment for a service. That comment will be two lima beans please... or whatever the mootish currency is.
__________________
Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
03-30-2004, 06:59 PM | #76 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
03-30-2004, 07:20 PM | #77 |
Dead
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: on the floor, under the table, just to your left, your other left
Posts: 1,486
|
And, of course, all politics end in someone getting screwed.
I still think that humans are inherently greedy and they got too much technology too fast, so when they are able too they grossly over consume.
__________________
How to Survive the Sillmarillion I thought that Alcohol was just for those with nothing else to do. I thought that drinking just to get drunk was a waste of precious booze. But now I know that there's a time and there's a place where I can choose To walk the fine line between self control and self abuse. "Lacerations make complications, but welts go away in a day." |
03-31-2004, 06:30 AM | #78 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
Quote:
There's been an interesting series on telly lately about medieval systems. Seemingly, it took your average peasant farmer about 50 days to work off their tithe to the feudal lord. After that, everything was their own. This compares unfavourably with the current situation: seemingly, your typical Brit has to work for about 80 days to pay their rent/mortgage and taxes. Where's Guillaume le Marischal got to? He'd love this. |
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Who Hates Harry Potter? | Ma Uai: Ua Nemti | Harry Potter | 190 | 01-20-2011 05:31 AM |
who hates dragons | Kili Goldmoth | The Hobbit (book) | 25 | 03-04-2004 12:40 PM |