06-14-2003, 11:10 AM | #1 |
The Fleet-Footed
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 913
|
"Hero" according to Tolkien
How do you think Tolkien would define a hero, when you look at the various characters in the Lord of the Rings (not the Hobbit or Sil, just LotR)? Also, do you think he created different types of heros in LotR?
Note to mods: I know there is a "Who's the hero of LotR" thread, but I think this is a little different than that. If you don't think so, though, go ahead and close this.
__________________
Jesus saved me "To remain ignorant of things that happened before you were born is to remain a child" (Cicero, 106-43 B.C.) "Art is a lie which makes us realize the truth" (Picasso) |
06-14-2003, 11:19 AM | #2 |
the dumb stoner canuck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: canada
Posts: 2,542
|
i think he would define a hero as someone who has great virtues and leadership. i think marry and pippen were just minor characters at the begining of the book of the book but in the end they both came out heroes
__________________
-"Down with the system"-Serj tankian of system of a down -“Humans have been on the earth for millions of years, yet we don’t believe man began thinking until he started building walls. And what good have these walls ever done us?”-Serj tankian of soad -"stupid people do stupid things"-Serj tankian of soad "Trying is the first step to failure" Homer Simpson "It isn't going to be easy"-jerseydevil "only the good die young" I AM CANADIAN If the people lead, the leaders will follow. |
06-14-2003, 02:50 PM | #3 |
Enting
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 73
|
I think there are a lot of kinds of heros in LotR. There's the leader-type, like Aragorn; the virtous type, like Frodo; and my favourite of all: the unlikely heros. What I love about Tolkien is that he made simple people like Sam become heros through their efforts and virtues. I think he probably wanted to show that every person can be heroic.
__________________
"...So the essential Quest started at once. But I met a lot of things on the way that astonished me. Tom Bombadil I knew already; but I had never been to Bree. Strider sitting in the corner at the inn was a shock, and I had no more idea who he was than had Frodo. The Mines of Moria had been a mere name; and of Lothlórien no word had reached my mortal ears till I came there. Far away I knew there were the Horse-lords on the confines of an ancient Kingdom of Men, but Fangorn Forest was an unforeseen adventure." ~ J. R. R. Tolkien |
06-14-2003, 03:12 PM | #4 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Quote:
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
|
06-14-2003, 03:13 PM | #5 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Tolkien's England where the tale grew in the telling...
Posts: 330
|
Quote:
__________________
"Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so, with Pity." "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." "Very well,' he answered aloud, lowering his sword. 'But still I am afraid. And yet, as you see, I will not touch the creature. For now that I see him, I do pity him." |
|
06-14-2003, 03:24 PM | #6 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Tolkien didn't write a message. He wrote a Story.
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 06-14-2003 at 04:58 PM. |
06-14-2003, 04:26 PM | #7 | |
Mirthful Maiden
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rivendell
Posts: 1,252
|
Quote:
I don't think it has to do with the ability of being a leader, but more on the decisions and actions one takes despite everything to make a difference for the better. To push through all opposition and evil and defeat it.
__________________
The Elves represent, as it were, the artistic, aesthetic, and purely scientific aspects of the Humane nature raised to a higher level than is actually seen in Men.~ J.R.R. Tolkien Wanna play? www.thievesguild.com |
|
06-15-2003, 02:22 AM | #8 | |
Viggoholic
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,749
|
Quote:
Tolkien says that Sam is the hero of LOTR, so I think he believes that a hero is somebody who leads a relatively normal life, but then when they really need to, they can keep going against all the odds and succeed. He most definitely created different heroes in LOTR. The hobbits are small, yet courageous; whilst Aragorn and Gandalf are your more typical heroes: wise, 'magical' and noble. Then there's Legolas who is quiet but brave, and Gimli who's grim yet determined. And Faramir is a hero because he is so wise and thoughtful in resisting the tempatation of the Ring, unlike his brother. But Boromir gave his life for the hobbits, so he also redeems himself and becomes a hero.
__________________
Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try. |
|
06-15-2003, 03:24 AM | #9 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Tolkien's England where the tale grew in the telling...
Posts: 330
|
Quote:
Whilst the book itself doesn't have to have a message (in the sense that Tolkien wasn't trying to make a point in the way C S Lewis was in the Narnian tales) but just had a fantastic story to tell, nevertheless, it is the thousands of 'messages' hidden in the Middle Earth tales that make the book a classic and leads to people like us spending all our time reading, rereading and then discussing them. IMO, JRRT had messages to tell us about good and evil; right and wrong; human frailty; the limits of magic (or miracle) solutions; greed; love; the power of God(s); saving the environment; how far a horse can be ridden before it tires; how a great society can be created or decay; and millions of other things, both mundane and fantastical, that catch our imagination and make us think. Of course, he didn't intentionally put all these messages in the book, but, in another sense, it is a measure of his greatness as an author that he did know he was putting most of those messages there. So, "I think that [as far as 'heroes' are concerned] the real essence of Tolkien's message [not perhaps deliberately implanted by JRR, but no less part of what he was saying with his 'story']...is that everyone has it within themselves to be a hero, but it depends on the decisions we make." Is that okay? Last edited by LutraMage : 06-15-2003 at 03:33 AM. |
|
06-15-2003, 09:03 AM | #10 |
Doughy Elf
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,006
|
True what every one has said. There are so many heros in the book, and all by different means (Like Sam is a hero in a different way then Gandalf, perhaps. Which makes the story even more interesting, when the heros are unlikely, and the meaning even deeper.).
|
06-15-2003, 12:42 PM | #11 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Quote:
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
|
06-15-2003, 01:48 PM | #12 |
im quite stupid
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cockermouth
Posts: 2,058
|
You should not disregard what i would call the blue blood of tolkien though. He was a firm believer in who your father was. Aragorn for example has a strain of the devine in him and was unmingled with lesser men. The high elves it mattred who you were related to! so some people were born heoric or with more than the capibility to be!
Even with the hobbits its well noted about the took strain meaning they like to adventure and baggins been a more sensiable sort (Gandalfs reasons for picking Bilbo). The only member of the Fellowship that isnt born into a well established higher line or prince like status (is gimli a prince?) is Sam, hes the guy that comes out of left feild! Its a shame you want to restricted this to just LOTR cos theres loads of stuff on this but i think he was a believer in team work end of the day they are all heros they all do there part what kind of a king could Aragorn be if he didnt have good soliders to comand? Its al;l about doing your best and i think they were no slackers in the Fellowship (apart from that Gandalf character allways bu**ring off when you most need him )
__________________
Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot |
06-15-2003, 10:44 PM | #13 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Quote:
2) I always thought that that was because of their dealings with the Elves, that they sort of "rubbed off". The Fallohides were quite Elvish hobbits, in many respects.
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
|
06-16-2003, 01:54 AM | #14 |
Alasailon
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: college
Posts: 861
|
I always thought that Tolkien had a personal liking to the character of Sam. So simple, yet able to withstand almost anything. In the end, Sween is right about teamwork though. I couldn't imagine the ending working out as it did if it weren't for everybody involved and the parts that each of them played.
__________________
"and then this hobbit was walking, and then this elf jumped out of a bush and totally flipped out on him while wailing on his guitar." "Anglorfin was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of anger; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was great skill." |
06-16-2003, 10:41 AM | #15 |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
I think Tolkien shows many sides of what makes up a hero, especially in Sam's charachter. Would Sam have done all that he did had he not felt the way he did about Frodo? Would he have even become involved with the quest? I think Tolkien shows how love can be a strong motivation for self sacrifice and heroism. That love can replace fear with bravery.
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
06-16-2003, 12:11 PM | #16 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: NEW JERSEY!
Posts: 375
|
sam was one fo the few who posessed the ring that did not feel its power, but thats partially because he held it the shortest, but also because of his pure heart. isdulur held it for a short time and was devoured by it. sam is a very stedfast character
__________________
Woah Deep |
06-16-2003, 12:58 PM | #17 |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
Well, I don't want to call Sam simple minded, but I think one of the biggest reasons that the Ring had little if any effect on him was that he was innocent in so many ways. Maybe ignorant would be a suitable word.
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
06-16-2003, 01:16 PM | #18 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Tolkien's England where the tale grew in the telling...
Posts: 330
|
Quote:
However, if you don't agree, we can happily agree to disagree. I still think Tolkien had messages he wanted to get over in his books and one of those was about the nature of heroism.
__________________
"Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so, with Pity." "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." "Very well,' he answered aloud, lowering his sword. 'But still I am afraid. And yet, as you see, I will not touch the creature. For now that I see him, I do pity him." |
|
06-18-2003, 12:06 AM | #19 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 103
|
I tend to agree with most of what everyone here says about Tolkien and heroes. I like the fact that all the heroes are not all alike. It seems as if almost anyone can be a hero, even a person who you wouldn’t expect.
Quote:
|
|
06-19-2003, 03:15 PM | #20 | ||
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
||
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Research paper on Tolkien | The Telcontarion | Writer's Workshop | 10 | 12-16-2007 12:04 PM |
Whats on your Bookshelf? | hectorberlioz | General Literature | 135 | 02-12-2007 07:26 PM |
My 10Kth post - Tolkien and a California Girl | Rían | General Messages | 52 | 11-12-2005 10:38 PM |
The Sundering of the Tolkien Fans | Black Breathalizer | Lord of the Rings Movies | 55 | 01-22-2003 01:27 PM |
a little orientation needed | DrFledermaus | The Silmarillion | 9 | 02-12-2001 05:48 AM |