02-27-2003, 11:35 PM | #1 |
The Tall
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Was the Ring the Ruin of Sauron?
When you read LOTR, you notice that when the one Ring was destroyed, Sauron too was utterly defeated, so it would be logical to assume that it was so but, what if we look at it in another way.
Remember that Sauron had been disembodied in Númenorë, and he had been defeated in the war of the Last Alliance. Had he not made his ring, would he have been able to come back from that? Take for example the Lord of the Balrogs, Gothmog. I think that his power level comparing to Sauron must be very similar. When Gothmog was killed by the lord of the Fountains, he was unable to reincarnate himself. Now, if he couldn't do it, why would Sauron be able to? My guess is that without the Ring, Sauron would not have gotten that far in ME.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
02-28-2003, 12:31 AM | #2 |
The Redneck Elf
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Sauron concentrated all of his power into this one Ring. This was not very smart IMO.
If he hadnt made the ring in the first place, he wouldnt have had enough power to do much of anything
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02-28-2003, 01:00 AM | #3 |
Radically Tolkienited
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The way I look at it is this: Sauron was his own undoing. So was the Balrog. Saruman destroyed himself as well. I think that whenever a Maia wanted to appear in physical form on ME they could choose how big and powerful that physical (and destructable) form.
In creating their physical form they would use the power they were created with, and so some of the power that went into their physical body was taken out of the essence they were created as, so if their physical form was destroyed, the SPIRIT that lived within the body would be of no harm to anyone and would basically kick itself in the tail for being so stupid. Take Sauron for example. He was more powerful than all the 5 istari wizards combined, but because he put all or most of his power into the making of Baradur and the Ring he hardly had any for himself, so when the Ring was destroyed his spirit, his entity was destroyed as well. Kind of sad really, one of the greatest Maia reduced to less than a quivering mass of nerves just because of pride, stupidity, and a hobbit. *shakes head* Cheers, Sam
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02-28-2003, 09:27 AM | #4 | ||
The Tall
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Quote:
Quote:
Have you ever wondered if Sauron would have survived his two previous dis-incarnations if he hadn't had an anchor like the Ring?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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02-28-2003, 09:54 AM | #5 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Sauron was powerful before the creation of the Ring, but would he have survived these other two episodes if he had not made the Ring? This is a re-direction of his power. Did any Elf, Man, or group togeter stand a chance of victory against him without the existance of the Ring? He was greater than they, but probably not invincable. When he made the Ring, it gave him something to draw on. Reminds me of a bank account in a way. Whats the best way to conserve money. You'll spend more in a checking account so when you start spending frivolously the funds dwindle. What's a good solution? Tranfer the money into a savings account, then you have reserves to draw on. So perhaps what this comes down to, is that by the Ring holding most of his power, bought him more time than it would have otherwise, but, with or without the Ring, Sauron"s demise was inevitable.
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02-28-2003, 11:12 AM | #6 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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02-28-2003, 11:20 AM | #7 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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02-28-2003, 11:42 AM | #8 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Yes, that's what I meant. I read Maedhros' post as saying that the only reason he seemed stronger than the Istari in general, not as a whole, was because of restrictions. Of course, I was probably wrong.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
02-28-2003, 12:55 PM | #9 | |
Quasi Evil
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02-28-2003, 03:47 PM | #10 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Good analogy of bank accounts SGH.
I tend to think of the One Ring as one of Sauron's incarnations. It was a physical shape which received much of his power and will. When his fair shape was destroyed at the Downfall of Númenor, he still got his other incarnation to fall back on (Ignoring for the time the problem of why his Ring wasn't destroyed at the Downfall as well, or at least drowned. Didn't he wear it? Didn't he bring it to Númenor?). But now his power was mostly spent into his Ring, he was unable to take a fair form. When the Ring was destroyed, most of his power was also gone, and could not be regained. About restrictions: The Istari were not allowed to force or scare the people of Middle-Earth into doing (or not doing) things, they were limited to giving councel, and let people decide for themselves. Sauron had no such limits. On the contrary, his aim was to bend the will of all people in Middle-Earth under his own. (Which takes a lot of energy, but doesn't contradict the law of entropy )
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02-28-2003, 04:20 PM | #11 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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It's not surprising really. Sauron followed Morgoth in all things. Like Morgoth he wanted to increase his inherant power by investing it beyond himself (though this paradoxically weakens him without the thing he invested). Like Morgoth he couldn't read his enemies, and so he was ruined. Its telling about evil-even the most intelligent evildoers truly know their enemies, even if they have some tactical ability.
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02-28-2003, 04:39 PM | #12 | |
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Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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02-28-2003, 06:10 PM | #13 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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I think enabling the exercise of free will is an essential moral code in Tolkien's world. To persuade someone by fear or force is an evil thing. The Istari knew this, as did all the Ainur. Free will was for the Istari also, there was nothing to hinder them in forsaking their task, like Radagast and the blue Wizards did, or to turn to evil like Saruman did. The abilities of the Istari was somewhat limited by the physical shape that they had as old Men, but their power was still dreadful when revealed.
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03-01-2003, 02:21 PM | #14 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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Well they were emissaries of the valar-who knew that active intervention had not worked that well.
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03-04-2003, 11:21 PM | #15 | ||
The Tall
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Quote:
Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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03-05-2003, 04:24 AM | #16 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Thanks!
Letter #211 also says this: Quote:
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--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 03-05-2003 at 04:29 AM. |
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03-08-2003, 02:38 PM | #17 | |
Enting
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Re: Was the Ring the Ruin of Sauron?
Quote:
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"When life gives you lemons, clone them and make SUPER LEMONS!!!!!" ~Professor Scudworth LONG LIVE THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE WEE SCARVIES! you'll have to excuse me, i'm not at my best i've been gone for a month i've been drunk since i left there so-called vacations will soon be my death i'm so sick from teh drink i need home for a rest we arrived in december and london was cold so we stayed in thebars along charing cross road we never saw nothin' but brass taps and oak kept a shine on the bar with the sleeves of our coats -chorus- euston station the train journey north in the buffet car we lurched back and forth past odd crooked dykes through yorkshire's green fields we were flung into dance as the train jigged and reeled you'll have to excuse me, i'm not at my best i've been gone for a month i've been drunk since i left there so-called vacations will soon be my death i'm so sick from teh drink i need home for a rest take me home.... by the light of the moon she'd drift through the streets a rare old perfume so seductive and sweet she'd tease us and flirt as the pubs all closed down then walk us on home and deny us a round -chorus- the gas heater's empty, it's damp as a tomb and the spirits we drank are not ghosts in the room i'm knackered again, come on sleep take me soon and don't lift up my head 'till the the twelve bells at noon you'll have to excuse me, i'm not at my best i've been gone for a month i've been drunk since i left there so-called vacations will soon be my death i'm so sick from teh drink i need home for a rest take me home.... |
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03-08-2003, 09:04 PM | #18 |
Lady of Westernesse
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Well, I say it's half and half. He needed the Ring to reach his goal of enslaving all of Middle-earth, however, he left out the part where because of how much of himself he put into the Ring, he would be destroyed along with his Ring. Kind of like Gollum, a bit.
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03-10-2003, 08:10 PM | #19 | |
The Tall
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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03-10-2003, 11:52 PM | #20 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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