02-05-2003, 10:47 AM | #1 |
Peer of the realm of Sanguine
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Valar: Gods or Angels?
Before reading the Silmarillion, I read a few essays about the work, and a few of them refer to the Valar as Gods, and some refer to them as angels. Now I know these terms are "dumbed down," but after reading the Sil twice it still puzzles me, so I would like to inquire of the participants of this forum (whom I consider to be very wise):
If you had to categorize the Valar in this manner, how would you describe them?
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“"I am the friend of bears and the guest of eagles. I am Ringwinner and Luckwearer; and I am Barrel-rider," Fear Complacency! ___________________ Something under the bed is drooling Last edited by barrelrider110 : 02-05-2003 at 10:48 AM. |
02-05-2003, 10:56 AM | #2 |
The Tall
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Angels, Ilúvatar is the one true God.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
02-05-2003, 11:19 AM | #3 | |||
Peer of the realm of Sanguine
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Quote:
However, consider the following: From Valaquenta, Of the Valar: Quote:
Quote:
Still puzzled.
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“"I am the friend of bears and the guest of eagles. I am Ringwinner and Luckwearer; and I am Barrel-rider," Fear Complacency! ___________________ Something under the bed is drooling |
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02-05-2003, 12:11 PM | #4 |
Hobbit
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I would definitely call the Valar "Gods" and the Maiar "Angels".
Ilúvatar falls out of this category - he is the creator of all. |
02-05-2003, 12:49 PM | #5 | |
Sapling
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Quote:
Agree with this 100%. Ilúvatar is only entity able to create life with independent thought (eg Dwarves), which in my mind makes him God. The Valar however cannot, which to my mind isn't very God like. Men may have called the Valar Gods, and they may appear to be God like to man, but I don't think that means they actually are ? |
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02-05-2003, 12:50 PM | #6 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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02-05-2003, 01:46 PM | #7 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Here is Tolkien's own words, from Letter #131:
Quote:
The Valar = Angelic powers, rulers of the world.
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02-05-2003, 01:55 PM | #8 |
Peer of the realm of Sanguine
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Thank you.
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“"I am the friend of bears and the guest of eagles. I am Ringwinner and Luckwearer; and I am Barrel-rider," Fear Complacency! ___________________ Something under the bed is drooling |
02-05-2003, 05:23 PM | #9 | |
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Do one thing every day that scares you ~Anonymous~ <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><<>< <>< <>< <>< I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America And to the Republic for which it stands One nation UNDER GOD with liberty and justice for all |
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02-05-2003, 05:24 PM | #10 |
Elven Warrior
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Well in a Christian sense I think they fall into the following categories:
Illuvatar = God Valar = Arch Angels Maiar = Angels But, on the other hand, they do resemble Gods in various myths and legends (the Norse pantheon being a prime example), which I think is what Tolkien was trying to get at when he called the Valar Gods...
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Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä. |
02-05-2003, 07:39 PM | #11 |
Hoplite Nomad
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I stand with Captain stern.
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
02-06-2003, 01:02 AM | #12 |
The Insufferable
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Tolkien called them angelic gods, I believe. Seperate from and less than eru, the one God.
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02-06-2003, 01:28 AM | #13 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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The valar are angels-but made "godlike" in the mythological sense because such beings are "necessary" for such a myth cycle.
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02-06-2003, 02:45 AM | #14 | |
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Quote:
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02-06-2003, 09:41 AM | #15 |
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I'm not a master of bible studies by any stretch, but I can define Archangels as leaders in the hierarchy of angels; they have angels under them and who answer to them. Interestingly, Lucifer (Satan) is generally considered to be a peer to the archangels such as Michael and Gabriel. Is there a ring of allegory here?
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“"I am the friend of bears and the guest of eagles. I am Ringwinner and Luckwearer; and I am Barrel-rider," Fear Complacency! ___________________ Something under the bed is drooling Last edited by barrelrider110 : 02-06-2003 at 09:45 AM. |
02-06-2003, 09:45 AM | #16 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Thanks.
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02-06-2003, 02:25 PM | #17 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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02-06-2003, 03:09 PM | #18 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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But isn't Michael the captain of the Hosts of Heaven? The impression I got of Manwe was of a pure, pacifistic good, which is altogether too pure to truly understand the nature of Evil; isn't that why He released Morgoth?
Also, I think there's only one archangel, Michael. Of course, there is no where in the Bible where it says this, but a few things I found when researching angels/archangels for a discussion of them on another board led me to that belief. Also, Tolkien often refers to the Valar as gods (lower case 'g'), and he refers to Iluvatar as God (upper case 'G'), both in the Letters. I think he summed it up best when he said (parphrasing here, don't remember the exact quote) 'The Valar are gods in regards to power, but not in regards to theology.' He also says that they are invoked from time to time by the peoples of Middle-Earth, but in the sense that Catholics may invoke a saint, rather than a prayer to God/a god.
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02-06-2003, 03:50 PM | #19 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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I think that Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael are all considered archangels. Michael is the captian of the Host of Heaven. I think the Bible only names 3 those angels specifically. I do remember in Lotr where Faramir asks the Valar to have mercy on someone...I forget who....I guess that is sort of parallel to Catholics asking a saint to intercede for them. |
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02-06-2003, 05:25 PM | #20 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I think it was "May the Valar turn him (Mumak) aside!" Of course, they could have both been there. And let's not forget the numerous invocations of Elbereth.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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