12-13-2002, 04:15 PM | #21 | |
The Insufferable
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
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12-13-2002, 04:22 PM | #22 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-13-2002, 04:43 PM | #23 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Some bit in HoME does says that if men lived in Aman they might likely be shorter lived rather than longer, but the experience or enviroment is unsuitable for their spirit.
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12-13-2002, 04:58 PM | #24 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-13-2002, 05:12 PM | #25 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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There's that fascinating little bit in (yes, you guessed it ) Morgoth's Ring about what would happen to men if they went to live in Aman. It's in Myths Transformed, under the section "Aman and Mortal Men". Basically how their physical lives would be extended because of the influence of Aman, but it would be a horrible thing, because their spirits were not meant to have a body like that. Here's a quick quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 12-13-2002 at 05:13 PM. |
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12-13-2002, 05:44 PM | #26 | |
The Insufferable
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The reason that the Numenoreans attacked valinor was that they believed that posessing the land would somehow make them immortal. The valar tell them that living in valinor would not, in fact, make them immortal, and that the land of valinor actually had no special properties in and of itself. But since your asking about living longer in beleriand, there really aren't any textual sources regarding that. I find no reason to believe that living among the elves provides any benefit other than those which are outlined. rest from ones cares, good food and drink, plenty of rest, and affordable medical and dental care- those are all things which tend to make people live longer. But aside from that, I don't see anything the elves provide which would drastically increase the length of life for humans.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
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12-13-2002, 05:54 PM | #27 | |
AngAdan
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Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 12-13-2002 at 05:57 PM. |
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12-13-2002, 07:30 PM | #28 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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I was just wondering what was behind those two little paragraphs in the Sil that says:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-17-2002, 09:51 PM | #29 | |
Elf Lord
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Different mythologies had their influence here. Do not forget that Tir Na Nog (the Celtic land of the Ever Young), and Avalon itself was in the West. (Remember Avallone?) And it was also was a way by witch Tolkien gave a meaning to the coming to the west of the Saxon tribes in the old mythology of the Lost Tales. Now in his mithiology they were driven by a purpose nobler that simply finding a suitable land to settle; they searched for the West. The Newer mythology inherited the ancient and refined it, and left the place of the Blessed Land unchanged.
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
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12-17-2002, 10:20 PM | #30 | |
The Buddy Rabbit
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12-18-2002, 01:29 PM | #31 | |
Elf Lord
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I’m aware of the association, of the name Brazil with the mythic land of “I Brazil” but I must say I’ve always considered that hypothesis unlikely, (albeit a interesting one). As you may know, that wasn’t the original official name of the country (It was called then Terra de Vera Cruz, meaning Land of the True Cross). So how it came to be known as Brazil? The name seems to be associated with that of a specific tree of Brazil known as “Pau Brazil,” meaning in Old Portuguese, “fire-coloured wood.” In the early times of colonization, the Pau Brazil had quite an economic relevance, so that the caravelas and naus (old Portuguese sailing ships) would go there specifically to load that wood and bring it home. Mariners would say “Ir ao Brazil,” meaning they were going to Vera Cruz to load wood, but the phrase is quite ambivalent, and can also be understood as going to the land of Brazil. In time, the word Brazil became associated with the land. Sorry for the ramble, but history is a passion of mine
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
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12-23-2002, 12:59 AM | #32 | ||
The Tall
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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12-23-2002, 09:49 AM | #33 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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In "Myths transformed" it is said that Melkor in the beginning of days put forth his power into the physical earth and thus marred it. It could be, perhaps, that Melkor poured the greatest part of his dark power into the earth in the lands east of Ered Luin, so that Men and Elves and other living creatures would be more affected there. Hence the Edain would benefit from fleeing westwards.
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12-23-2002, 10:03 AM | #34 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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There is also a possibility that the Edain were rewarded for turning away from the influence of Melkor. Melkor made Men fear death, which should not be feared as it was a gift to them. In the quote given by SGH, Beor gives up his life willingly when his time has come, and do no longer fear death. It seems then as if Men do not try to avoid death, which is their natural fate, death is actually postponed. We see the opposite process among the Numenoreans, they did not die willingly, but clinged to life, and the result was shorter lifespan.
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12-28-2002, 08:32 PM | #35 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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But Tolkien isn't all negative towards men. Note in ROTK Gimli and Legolas discuss Minas Tirith and Legolas notes that men's glory may wane, but they can wax again-elves and dwarves are doomed to vanish from the world.
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12-28-2002, 10:07 PM | #36 | ||
Elven Warrior
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And about Aragorn, eventually. Perhaps JRRT viewed humans as a battleground in which there are many casualties but always resurging hope due to the human spirit that will not give up -- "the old that is good does not perish, deep roots are not reached by the frost" (a paraphrase, as the books aren't handy). It takes some time and reflection to connect Bilbo's poem for Aragorn with The Akallabeth, but the connection, I believe, is there, signified perhaps by how Aragorn was known in Rivendell: Dunadan, or Numenorean. (And in the external story, a rather neat linkage between The Akallabeth, The Hobbit, and The Lord of the Rings.) Interestingly, Ar-Pharazon and those Numenoreans who landed on Aman with him weren't destroyed, either, though their fate was far worse than that of the Faithful who escaped the Downfall but had to labor hard in Middle-earth. The rebellious Numenoreans who had broken the ban were buried in the Caves of the Forgotten, to stay there until the Last Battle: they got a taste of immortality, that is, and I bet they would really understand the meaning of the gift of Iluvatar by the time they would be released. So, they didn't fail, either: just got taught a very hard lesson.
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