11-28-2002, 05:33 PM | #21 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 44
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Suilad, Elanor, mellon nĂ*n.
Interesting discussion here and some good points brought out IMO. I had not previously noticed that about FĂ«anor ruthlessly taking and then destroying the creations of the Teleri while selfishly denying the benefit of his creations to all of Arda. I think the concept of the ships being one-of-a-kind creations is a good one too. In our world, there were lots of tall ships, but only one Cutty Sark, only one Flying Cloud, etc. A painter could paint a masterpiece, and if it were destroyed, he could still paint more pictures, but that particular masterpiece would be gone forever, it could not be duplicated. I think the Teleri could and did build more ships, but they could not duplicate the original ones as each one was unique. Ithildin
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11-28-2002, 07:10 PM | #22 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: The Shire
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Suilad Ithildin,
Great to meet you here! (A-hem, I think I ought to expand my Sindarin vocabulary... somewhat ) IMHO you are raising very interesting points about irreplaceable creations. Indeed, what holds more value - life of creator or the irreplaceable things created? Feanor obviously valued Teleri far below their ships...
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11-28-2002, 11:43 PM | #23 | ||
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
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When you think about the fact that Elves can be reborn, then the slaying of elves is not that bad because they can actually return to Arda (althought I gather that the experience is not pleasing). I often wondered about the Teleri in Valinor. They had made their ships, they live a life of peace, they were not going to do anything else in their lives. The cool thing about FĂ«anor is that no matter if it was an elf, maiar or Vala, he was willing to do anything to avenge his father and regain his Silmarils. Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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11-29-2002, 01:44 AM | #24 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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Feanor wanted the ships for transport, to achieve his own ends. He was willing to destroy anything that impeded his will from being done on this issue, and because of that he destroyed the Teleri. He didn't care for either the Teleri or their ships, as is evidenced by the fact that he burned them after they reached land . Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-29-2002 at 01:52 AM. |
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11-29-2002, 10:37 AM | #25 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: European Union
Posts: 463
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I think the answer to the question is actually contained in the opening post (although several posters have already expanded on it in constructive ways): the Teleri refers to "the work of our hearts".
Like Elven love between man and woman, it was never substituted. The ships were probably also unique creations, not only work of heart but also work of art. The ships were also so closely related to their particular Teleri brand of Elvishness that they identified strongly with them. I would hesitate to assume the ships were animated, but I do think they took on a sort of personality to their masters and that they in return loved them. Hence the use of the term "rape". BTW hello Elanor Gamgee and Ithildin55 from Kirinki54!
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11-29-2002, 05:12 PM | #26 | ||||||||
Hobbit
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: The Shire
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What I see as Feanor's biggest fault is the fact that he coersed the Teleri, denying their rights and their free will. The fact that Elves are immortal does not matter, IMHO. Feanor was himself immortal; however, he had refused to surrender the Silmarils under this very pretext - it would have caused his death. However, he killed the Teleri without remorse, in order to achieve his personal objectives. This is what I call selfish. BTW, Tolkien considered coersion of an incarnate's free will the biggest "sin" that could be committed, and the ultimate cause of Morgoth's and Sauron's fall. Quote:
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Later on, in Athrabeth Finrod ah Adreth Tolkien developed his ideas. As he wrote in Note 7 to Athrabeth: Quote:
Further clarification is given in editorial note 19 to the same Athrabeth: Quote:
As for the Arda Healed, in Athrabeth Tolkien seemed to soften his position a bit. He declared it (through Finrod) as a possibility; at least, Finrod's good hope was resting in such an end. Now - to Feanor's re-embodiment. Maybe I was too hasty in having Iluvatar to condemn him. This is how the text runs: Quote:
Further, Editorial Note [8] to this text: Quote:
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