10-21-2002, 03:09 PM | #1 | |||
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Turgon's Folly
Why did Turgon became proud and refused the aid of Ulmo?
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All quotes are from the Published Silmarillion.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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10-21-2002, 05:33 PM | #2 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
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He had become very proud of his Kingdom, which was the highest expresion of Nolorian culture, and likely Elvish culture, in Middle Earth, with a city approching the splender of Tirion upon Tuna in Aman.
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10-21-2002, 06:00 PM | #3 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Also because of the outcome of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, which was the only time that Turgon had opened the leaguer of Gondolin, he became bitter and decided to never have anything more to do with the outside world, and that included the Noldor. Hithlum was gone, his family was dead, and his best friend Finrod was no more. Nargothrond still existed, but I think Turgon blamed the Elves of Nargothrond for their sudden onslaught in that battle which contributed to their loss and Fingon's death. I think this was some of the reason for his pridefulness. His realm was well hidden and he decided that he no longer needed anyone or anything from outside.
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10-22-2002, 12:46 AM | #4 | ||
The Tall
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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10-22-2002, 01:27 AM | #5 | |||
Queen of Nargothrond
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10-22-2002, 04:18 PM | #6 |
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
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I know that, but why the resentment with the people of Nargothrond. Why Nargothrond specifically?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
10-22-2002, 09:59 PM | #7 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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10-23-2002, 10:32 PM | #8 | |
The Tall
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Ok.
There is this too from the Fall of Gondolin in BOLT: Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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10-23-2002, 11:04 PM | #9 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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The elves were materialistic in the truest sense-not greedy, but being beings concerned with sub-creation they were tied to such creations. Such desires led to their downfall in later ages.
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"Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom" |
10-25-2002, 10:33 AM | #10 |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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And earlier ages. Just think of Fëanor and the Silmarilli.
Turgon also had the doom of the ñoldor upon him (correct me if I'm wrong, can't check it out now), so it's not very weird that he didn't abandon it.
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. |
10-25-2002, 02:03 PM | #11 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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--Life is hard, and then we die. |
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10-25-2002, 04:13 PM | #12 |
AngAdan
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To amplify that pint:
When the evles (mostly Noldor we are talking about here) use their "subcreative" powers in shaping a land and making great things, they, like the Aniur, transfer small bit of their spirit into the creation. Thus abandoning great works upon which they used such power means literaly leaving a part of themselves behind.
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," |
10-25-2002, 05:32 PM | #13 | |
The Tall
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In the end, he regreted his folly:
BOLT 2: The Fall of Gondolin Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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10-25-2002, 05:36 PM | #14 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Maedhros, how much do you think the old mythology is applicable to the events in the Sil?
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10-25-2002, 07:11 PM | #15 | ||
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Quote:
HOME 4: Quenta Quote:
The only revision that you can find of the Tale is in the Book of Unfinished Tales: Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin (late Tuor), and it only deals with the arrival of Tuor and Voronwë to Gondolin. If you see Morgoth's Ring or War of the Jewels, the latest revision, the last that JRRT wrote is The Wanderings of Húrin. So, the Fall of Gondolin, is not contrary to any thing that JRRT wrote about the Fall of Gondolin, so I say it's kind of his word. There are of course, inconvenient things, such as the Mechanical Monsters, yet the Tale is something that I would keep.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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10-27-2002, 03:31 PM | #16 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Re: Turgon's Folly
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I don't know why he lost faith in Ulmo. I guess the fact that none of his messengers that he sent to Valinor were able to reach it or even return had something to do with it. He might have interpreted it as if the Valar didn't want to help him. It may be an explanation why he trusted more in the strength of his city.
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11-08-2002, 08:51 AM | #17 |
Elf Lord
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The account of the Lost Tales, while invaluable, is still very rough, compared with the later sophistication of the Silmarillion. We do not have (as you say, Maedhros) an accurate vision of what was Tolkien’s later vision to the Fall of Gondolin, or to Turgon’s motives, but I suspect Turgon’s reasons would have became more refined (as other characters became more refined also).
He may indeed have became proud of his city, but it might be that he felt the road offered by Ulmo was more perilous than simply remaining in hiding in Gondolin. He probably underestimated the danger he faced by remaining in his city. In any event I believe he never took what Ulmo said as being a prophecy, he probably considered it as advice based on an imperfect (if great) knowledge of the future, an advice he didn’t agree in his heart.
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11-08-2002, 03:03 PM | #18 | |
AngAdan
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