09-03-2002, 08:37 AM | #1 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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Genocide in the Two Towers
I watched one of The Two Towers promos last night. PJ mentions that the movie is about genocide, the genocide of men. (the battle of Helms Deep in particular) Sauron and Saruman, allies, have decided that the race of men should be eliminated. I never picked this idea up when reading the books. I am a word gobbler when I read, so I could have missed this concept, I suppose. Was it there?
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09-03-2002, 08:57 AM | #2 |
the Shrike
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I didn't get genocide. Sounds like a PJ POV to me....
I got dominion rather than genocide. Remember that both Sauron and Saruman had men working for them; not just orcs. I could be wrong though.
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09-03-2002, 09:10 AM | #3 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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Well, that's kind of the same veiw I took! Seemed like the "women and children" bit gets flamed a little (in the new movie) . There's so many things going on in the books, I gues you could make a thousand movies!
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09-03-2002, 01:19 PM | #4 |
Elf Lord
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I agree with BoP, the genocide bit is PJ's POV -- and something to feed media types shaky on the LotR storyline.
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09-03-2002, 03:20 PM | #5 |
Hobbit
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Apart from the fact that I never saw Sauron and Saruman as true allies, as they both wanted the ring for themselves, if their ultimate aim was genocide, who would they have left to have dominion over when they won? It doen't make a great deal of sense to me.
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09-03-2002, 03:52 PM | #6 |
Elf Lord
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Hmm as the most morally weak and corruptable of all the races not created by Melkor himself, I always viewed men as potentially useful to the bad guys.
And with the Dominion of Men rising to eventually supplant all the older races of Middle Earth, in a way it is the other way round.
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09-03-2002, 05:21 PM | #7 |
The Rogue Elf
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I never picked up on genocide. That's PJ's POV alright.
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09-03-2002, 06:29 PM | #8 |
Elf Lord
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I personally never picked up on the genocide bit myself, just that they wanted complete dominion over man and were willing to kill those who did not immediately join them.
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09-04-2002, 06:15 AM | #9 |
Elven Warrior
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Genocide of Men? *shrug* well, I didn't find it that way... Hope PJ doesn't overdo it. *wanders off muttering* Genocide? How did he come up with that? Who knows the mind of the almighty director, but of course nowhere near as almighty as Tolkien... In fact not *that* almighty at all...
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09-04-2002, 08:52 AM | #10 |
Elf Lord
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Once upon a time a solider from Rohan was ambushed by a group of orcs. Just before they cut the poor guy's throat, he cries out...
"Excuse me, but am I being killed as an act of war or as an act of genocide???" The orcs stop and look puzzled. After an awkward pause their leader grins at the man and replies, "Har har har...you're dead either way, bub!" They kill him. The End. |
09-04-2002, 01:05 PM | #11 |
Elf Lord
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Actually, Genocide doesn't neccesarily mean the destruction of all men. Just a particular type of man.
The Rohirrim. The Straw-heads. The Forgoil. The Dunlandings would have been all for a campaign to wipe out the Rohirrim. But no, I don't particularlly see Sauruman as the type to waste resources like that. Dominion would have been his aim. But I also don't doubt that he wouldn't scruple to offer such rhetoric to his Dunland "allies".
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09-04-2002, 05:32 PM | #12 |
the Shrike
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Where does it say that he wanted to wipe them ALL out? References please.
I'm sure that both Sauron or Saruman would have gladly accepted some turncoat strawheads.... Wormtongue.
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09-04-2002, 07:54 PM | #13 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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It was the special features disc, (of course) in the part about the Two Towers where it starts with PJ driving his car while talking about the new movie. I don't remember what it was called, there were only two items about TT. I think (I have a notoriously bad memory, don't have a cow if I'm wrong!) it was the one that was NOT about the making of TT. I avoid all the "making of" things. Anyway, I had only rented it so I can't check for you at this time. PJ is driving his car when he's talking about this (I think!! )
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09-04-2002, 07:57 PM | #14 |
the Shrike
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Thanks for that, Lizra, but I was actually asking BH to back up his genocide idea.
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09-04-2002, 08:03 PM | #15 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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OK! Sorry... Never Mind
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09-04-2002, 08:42 PM | #16 |
protector of orphaned rabbits
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pj....
i never ever ever got Genocide out of ANY of it. but im just ornery today.
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09-04-2002, 08:50 PM | #17 |
the Shrike
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Well, this is what generally happens when you put a kiwi and a camera together in a car. He/she will talk absolute crap.
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09-04-2002, 10:38 PM | #18 |
Elf Lord
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PJ's talking about the movie. There's no Dunharrow (reportedly)so Helm's Deep is the last refuge of the Rohirrim and genocide is the most likely outcome if they lose.
Blackheart is right. Genocide doen't have to be all men. Many times in ROTK characters talk about how they will all die if Sauron wins. Big S has plenty of men in the East and the South that are under his control and who would move into western Middle-Earth should he win. However, I think the most likely explanation is that 'genocide' is just a convenient word for PJ to use [for sound-bite purposes] to describe the main plot of the movie.
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09-05-2002, 08:10 AM | #19 |
Elf Lord
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I agree with Olsonm. It's just marketing. The word, "genocide" makes it sound much more sinister and evil.
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09-05-2002, 08:14 AM | #20 |
the Shrike
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Heh. Not bloody likely.
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