|
FAQ | Members List | Calendar | Mark Forums Read |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
04-19-2008, 05:57 AM | #1 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Classification of the undead and the unquiet dead
What say you if we try to classify the "otherwordly" beings of Middle Earth?
Here is my first attempt: 1.The Undead, the Faded - with a physical body (hröa) present, but invisible (remaining in the World of Shadow) 1a. Ringwraiths 1b. Wraiths (victims of the Morgul blades) 1c. Faded Elves, the Lingerers. 2. The Unbodied, ghosts of the dead - naked spirit (fëa) without a body (hröa) 2a. Ghosts of dead Men (Dead of Dunharrow, Helm's ghost, etc) 2b. Ghosts of dead Elves: Houseless Elves who refused the summons of Mandos 2c. Ghosts of dead Orcs "left naked on the other side" (see Gorbag's words) 2d. Unbodied Maiar (Saruman after death, Sauron after his downfall etc.) 3. The fëar of the Dead housed in some bodies not their own, or in objects. 3a. Houseless Elves "housed" unlawfully in living bodies of Elves and Men - "possession" 3b. Houseless Elves (or other naked spirits)"housed" in dead bodies (not their own) - Barrow-wights 3c. Some spirits "housed" in stones - Silent Watchers of Minas Morgul and Cirith Ungol 3d. Some spirits "housed" in animal bodies - werewolves (and wereworms?) 4. Fëar housed in visible material bodies (hröar) 4a. Self-incarnate Valar and Maiar - Morgoth, Melian, First and Second Age Sauron, the Istari, etc. 4b. Re-embodied (by Eru) Maia -Gandalf the White 4c. Re-embodied (with the help of the Ring) Maia - Sauron 4d. Re-embodied in Mandos Elven fëar - Glorfindel, and other re-embodied Elves who stayed in Valinor. 4e. Re-embodied in Mandos (exceptional case) Mannish fëa - Beren I have already posted it on another forum, but I would love to hear the Mooter's opinion. I will edit this post to incorporate your suggestions Last edited by Gordis : 04-19-2008 at 09:44 AM. Reason: Added the parts in blue - following the suggestions below. |
04-19-2008, 06:45 AM | #2 |
The Ñoldóran
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mishawaka, IN
Posts: 2,050
|
This is good, but I still think re-embodied elves should have a category - they're different.
And also, what about unhoused Valar and Maiar?
__________________
Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
04-19-2008, 07:38 AM | #3 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
|
I agree with Curufin that unhoused Maiar should probably have a category. For instance, I doubt that Sauron, Saruman, and the Balrog ran straight to Mandos after having their bodies destroyed. Were their spirits so different from Elves that they wouldn't be considered dead?
Also, what about Orcs who got the big punishment of being left "naked on the other side"? Do you think this was just an empty threat used to intimidate the Orcs or was there actually something to it? Overall, it looks pretty good to me Gordis. |
04-19-2008, 08:08 AM | #4 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 987
|
I think when you introduce spirits of creatures who's natural state is spirit, you're opening this thing up to unnecessary complications. "Were their spirits so different from Elves that they wouldn't be considered dead?" I think so, yes. The Children, Elves and Men, were unique in all creation, created by the hand of Eru himself with both body and spirit. Maiar and Valar were not so. They were spirits who created bodies for themselves.
On a scientific level, perhaps the spirits and bodies are all the same "stuff" but philosophically I don't think there's anything wrong with categorizing Elves and Men uniquely. In fact, I think it is appropriate.
__________________
~The DPR "Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely kill you in the morning." |
04-19-2008, 08:38 AM | #5 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
|
Quote:
|
|
04-19-2008, 08:53 AM | #6 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
Is there much evidence on these houseless Elves being houses unlawfully in bodies?
__________________
We are not things. |
04-19-2008, 08:56 AM | #7 | |
The Ñoldóran
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mishawaka, IN
Posts: 2,050
|
Well, something like it is mentioned in HoME...in Laws and Customs, I believe?
Yeah, here it is: Quote:
__________________
Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
|
04-19-2008, 08:58 AM | #8 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Thank you all for quite valuable suggestions, Curufin, CAB and DPR.
I have edited the first post (see parts in blue). What do you think now? |
04-19-2008, 09:21 AM | #9 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
|
Quote:
Off topic question: 4d. Re-embodied in Mandos Elven fear - Glorfindel, etc. The etc. would have to include Luthien, right? Considering how strong Glorfindel got after his return, just how big an ass-kicker would Luthien have been? No wonder nobody tried to take the Silmaril from her. I never thought about that before. |
|
04-19-2008, 09:24 AM | #10 |
The Ñoldóran
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mishawaka, IN
Posts: 2,050
|
But Lúthien is a special case - she's not re-embodied as 'Eldar' but as 'Man' - at least, that's the closest thing you could come to it. She dies and her spirit leaves Arda...
__________________
Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
04-19-2008, 09:31 AM | #11 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
|
|
04-19-2008, 09:43 AM | #12 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Quote:
"etc." refers to all those hundreds of re-incarnate Elves who never came to ME, but stayed in Valinor. |
|
04-19-2008, 10:23 AM | #13 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 987
|
My guess is nothing changed about Luthien at all except her fate, but that's just a guess.
__________________
~The DPR "Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely kill you in the morning." |
04-20-2008, 09:23 AM | #14 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
|
__________________
Don't curse the darkness - light a candle. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|