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09-12-2007, 03:35 PM | #1 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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When the black breath blows...
It is interesting to date this rhyme’s origin.
Quote:
I think there are two, maybe three possibilities. 1. The rhyme is very old, speaking of the Last Alliance times when Gondor was attacked by Mordor at the end of the Second Age. The King then must have been Anarion, I think, more likely than Isildur or Elendil – as those two spent a lot of time away in Arnor, while Anarion defended Gondor for the time the Last Alliance army had been gathering. 2. The rhyme is more recent, from the times of the Siege of Minas Ithil by the Nazgul TA 2000-2002. The King at the time was Earnil - father of the last King Earnur. We have never heard of him as Healer specifically, we don’t even know if he even tried to deliver Minas Ithil. Still this dating seems more likely than the first option. Before 2000 there were Kings but no nazgul near Gondor. Later there were nazgul, but no King, only Stewards. Thoughts? Last edited by Gordis : 09-12-2007 at 03:36 PM. |
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09-12-2007, 04:51 PM | #2 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Interesting discovery, Gordis.
Another possibility may be perhaps that the nazgul are not the only possible source of black breath?
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09-12-2007, 06:08 PM | #3 |
Dreamweaver
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Or perhaps it is a prophetic poem? That's what I had always gathered...a poem handed down from long ago when someone caught some glimpse of the future, and over the years it faded into an old-wives tale...
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09-12-2007, 07:00 PM | #4 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Interesting idea! Who knows, it may even have originated with Malbeth, the Arnorian seer that prophetised Arvedui's name and fate.
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09-12-2007, 09:03 PM | #5 |
Elven Warrior
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Since Athelas is found in both Arnor and Gondor and originated in Numenor it may refer to a time in the second age when the Numenoreans aided in the wars with Sauron, or in the third age when the Witch-King haunted the dreams of the North Kingdom. The Nazgul appear again in the third age circa 1300 while there still was a king in Gondor as well as Arnor.
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09-13-2007, 02:02 AM | #6 |
Elf Lord
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The history of the rhymes doesn't go much farther then the Numenoreans war with Sauron. I'd say at least a couple of Numenorean Kings has got entrapped by Sauron's cunning devise. Since they were great men, with a lot of advance knowledge in magic and potions making, they, probably, were using Athelas to forestall the imminient fading and complete submission.
On another hand ,as Gandalf has been mentioning, a lot of lesser wraiths were wandering around since the war with Angmar. If Arnoreans were making a daggers, which were able to bring down the wraith, then they definately were looking for some reliable remedies for such malady.
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09-14-2007, 04:53 PM | #7 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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I still think that the rhyme was Gondorian - it is implied it was widely known there, unlike Malbeth's prophesies.
And if it was Gondorian in origin, than the likeliest time was the Siege of Minas Ithil - TA 2000-2002, in King Earnil's time We know little about Earnil, the father of the last king Earnur, but still we can make some speculations. Earnil was a great captain of war, but reasonable (Hadn’t he left Minas Ithil to the Nazgul, instead of making a bloodbath around the fortress until he lost all his army there? Hadn’t he decided to never use the Palantir after one Stone had been captured?) as well as honorable and compassionate (because he has sent help to Arvedui despite the fact that the Northerner had previously challenged his own right to the throne). I think he could have used his healing powers to help his men afflicted by the Black Breath near Minas Ithil – it won’t be out of character. Also there is this other quote that I should have put in my original post: Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 09-14-2007 at 04:55 PM. |
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09-14-2007, 09:58 PM | #8 | |
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
Of course Tolkien is probably basing this whole healing tradition from other sources of antiquity. Last edited by Kevin McIntyre : 09-14-2007 at 10:15 PM. |
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11-12-2007, 10:33 AM | #9 | ||
Elven Warrior
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I'm a bit late here, but…
Quote:
Quote:
Also, regarding the poem, wasn't the Black Breath called a new or unfamiliar sickness? Maybe the people of Gondor would unknowingly give this malady the same name it had many years before (it seems a fitting enough name), but this would still be quite a coincidence. |
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11-15-2007, 10:23 AM | #10 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Almost missed your post, CAB.
Yes I agree it MIGHT have been a prophesy. But: Quote:
Quote:
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11-16-2007, 01:34 PM | #11 |
Elf Lord
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Of course, it is also a very handy plot device.
I always rather thought that Arargorn established his claim rather easily to the populace. Mayhap Boromir may have ceded it after being a companion with him for so long ...but when back at the Citadel..when at home as captain and Heir to the Tower? mmmm... As to Denethor we know full well had he lived he would not have accepted Aragorn's claims. I would think the old saying is indeed at least imbued certainly with a prophetic tinge, but i am not overly sure the 'black breath' need necessaarily relate ONLY to Nazgul... to the Edain, it or similiar effects may even pre-date Numenor. As to this specific saying, it sounds Gondorean rather than the nobler less sing-song Northern / Arnorean... yet we should also remember that Aragorn and the Dunedain of the North the Rangers all knew of the properties of it, and indeed Elrond as the chief healer could use it better than even Aragorn (the true King) when Frodo ailed after Weathertop. Last edited by Butterbeer : 11-16-2007 at 01:44 PM. |
11-16-2007, 03:30 PM | #12 |
Elven Warrior
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I just had this really weird thought that the last line of the verse can at least theoretically interpreted to mean that a false (lying) king will try to use the athelas prophecy. Even more so if the version we're reading in English is itself a translation of another language (in that case, it may have been more eplicit).
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11-16-2007, 06:04 PM | #13 | |
Elven Warrior
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Well Gordis, after rereading this thread and looking up this quote, I think your Earnil theory might be the best option.
Quote:
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