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#1 |
Hobbit
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 37
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Middle-Earth what if...?
I love what ifs, don't you? Sure you do. So, I thought we could talk about some here, and some one can give a new one once in a while. I'd just like to make this clear that this is not focused solely on LotR, or The Hobbit for that matter, but to any time, place, or persons of Middle-Earth. So, I ask you, 'What if Saruman opposed Sauron for control of the ring?'
I'm not sure who would win out physically, the mass-produced Uruks of Isengard, or the vast legions of Mordor orcs, but... Even if Saruman wiped Mordor clean of every orc would he stand a chance? Sauron dies with the ring alone, but without the Orcs defending him could Sauron be removed? Like could Saruman destroy Baradur, and then without anyone to rebuild it would Sauron be 'stuck between' worlds? He'd have no physical presence in Middle-Earth any more, in his body or in Baradur, but with the ring still in one piece he wouldn't be gone. Or would Sauron's will take possession of Saruman, and that be his new, adopted body? With this I'd like to mention one last thing. I'd like to just point you in the direction of my RP-to-be, which focuses on this what if(?). If you're interested just leave a note here or there (there being >>> http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?p=547513#post547513 ), but please at least check it out.
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"Hey ho! To the pub I go, To heal my heart and drown my woe. Rain my fall and wind may blow, But there still be many miles to go! Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain, and the stream that falls from hill to plain. Better than rain or rippling brook... Is a mug of beer inside this Took!" |
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#2 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
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My personal feeling is that if Saruman had obtained the One Ring and if he managed to master it, then he would have made Sauron his slave, in much the same way that the Nazgul were slaves to Sauron. If he took the Ring but was unable to master it...well I am not sure. I personally don’t think that Sauron could possess someone else’s body. One way or the other, if Sauron knew that Saruman had the Ring, he would have made quite sure that Saruman’s “One Ring training” was as difficult and unpleasant as possible.
While the Ring continued to exist, Sauron could not be permanently removed. His physical form had been destroyed twice before but he wasn’t truly defeated until the power of the Ring was broken. I don’t believe that Sauron’s presence was tied to Barad-dur. However, I must admit that I don’t understand the importance placed on this fortress. Why was it mentioned that the foundations of Barad-dur couldn’t be removed while the Ring existed? Why would anyone take the trouble to try to do this anyway? Maybe I am missing something here. I believe that if Saruman had defeated or enslaved Sauron, then he would have occupied Barad-dur himself, rather than attempt to destroy it. |
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#3 | ||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 421
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#4 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
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... who IS this mysterious poster Letter #246 ???
![]() IF Saruman had the one and had mastered it ... he could, were he to choose to, shake down the foundations of Barad-dur ... heres a question though: would he not keep Sauron as a lesser minion, much as he himself did to the nazgul?? far more enteratining! and what of Gandalf? What would Lord Saruman of many rings do with him do you think? ![]() |
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Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
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#6 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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Interesting thread.
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About the quote from # 246. I interpret it this way. A part of Sauron's fea was contained in the Ring. Once it was destroyed, he lost his shape forever. If Gandalf defeated Sauron in direct confrontation, it meant that he took full possession of the Ring and its powers, depriving Sauron of a part of his fea. So the effect on Sauron would be the same as the Ring's destruction. I can't say that I agree with this idea, but who am I to contradict the Professor? ![]() |
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#7 | ||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
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#8 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: southampton, hampshire
Posts: 2,609
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Originally Posted by Butterbeer
IF Saruman had the one and had mastered it ... he could, were he to choose to, shake down the foundations of Barad-dur ... heres a question though: would he not keep Sauron as a lesser minion, much as he himself did to the nazgul?? I agree with you there, but had Saruman got the ring, would he be mentally strong enough to control both Sauron's soul and power. Also, do you think that with the ring, he (sauman) would be able to control the balrog of moria. |
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#9 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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So the question is, whether Saruman gets the One Ring BEFORE or AFTER he was demoted and his staff and power broken? |
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#10 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: southampton, hampshire
Posts: 2,609
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before he got demoted.
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#11 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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Then I think he had a good chance to defeat Sauron, better than Gandalf.
The Ring-Lore was Saruman's special province. Perhaps he made his own Ring hoping to supplant the missing One? I imagine him testing it: Saruman to nazgul " Come and bow to me!" Nazgul: " Go to Ungoliant, you fool" ![]() |
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#12 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: southampton, hampshire
Posts: 2,609
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yes, but do you think his arrogance would get in the way and make him do something stupid. On another 'what if...', what would have happened if instead of waiting two months from the council of Elrond, the company had gone immejectly, because surely Aragon, Gandalf and Elrond knew that without either shapes or horses, it would take time for the black riders to get back to Sauron to tell him what had happened. Just a thought.
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#13 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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And Saruman will be much more predictable for Sauron than Gandalf and Co. They think alike. Quote:
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#14 |
Spaceman Spiff
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In the belly of a Firefly, living in Serenity is where you'll find me
Posts: 1,438
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Yeah, I don't think much would've changed either Gordis.
What if Saruman captured the Ring, defeated Sauron, and took the Nine Rings; could he then decide to give them to new men to create new Wraiths? I don't how the Nine worked but, if I were Sauron I would want some new Wraiths. You know, get some new management. A sort of Wraith Dream Team. It would be hard to find a replacement for the With King but I would definitely try and get Aragorn and Faramir into it. They wouldn't take the ring by choice but Saruman did have a way with words. Eomer would be another I'd try and 'recruit'. Prince Imrahil would be another good addition. Who else would could we get?
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Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 421
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#16 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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#17 | ||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 421
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#18 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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Well, it doesn't change matters much. However it is curious that an Ainu fea left the Circles of the World, however briefly. Manwe communicated with Eru without leaving Valinor. Why couldn't Gandalf?
Not that I am much interested in this, anyway... |
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#19 | ||||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
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However, this one supports the view that he couldn’t leave the world, yet. Quote:
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#20 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 421
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There is a precedent of an Ainu who entered Ea - and then exited it before its end (again, by the intervention of Eru, according to Myths Transformed) - Melkor. |
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