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#1 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Montreal
Posts: 118
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Kiddie Porn in a CGI world - legal vs. ethical question
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3207462.stm
![]() CGI and 3D modeling techniques have made one of the most difficult things to realize become a reality. Take a look for yourself and let me know if this isn't someone who you might run into on the street. Take a look at the image and then think of one item. Kiddie porn! The laws against Kiddie Porn are aimed specifically at one goal. It isn't an attempt to repress the pedophile's emotions/sensations...it's all about protecting the kids used in these pictures and movies. Now...imagine that these kids don't really exist and never did. How will the law touch on this? No children are harmed in the creation of this film/picture. Does it fall into the same loophope as illicit writings, poetry, thoughts? All of those, although immoral, are NOT illegal. Why should CGI Kiddie-Porn be? |
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#2 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 301
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Do recall one case in America where a previously-convicted kiddie-porn pervert took a plea bargain on possession based on his own entirely fictional writings- his PO found a fictional diary with all kinds of horrendous fantasies.
It was suggested that he might have been able to beat it on First Amendment grounds, but he chose the better part of valour. |
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#3 |
The Black Númenórean
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,773
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*silently wonders how long this thing will last*
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Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. |
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#4 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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I guess some would argue that it incites people to do bad things to kids. We have no way of knowing if thats true though. In fact it could be the opposite. It could allow them to live out their fantasies without harming a child. I cant imagine how you could make it all illegal when you dont make pictures of simulated rape or simulated murder illegal. Seems so dangerous to litigate against it. But on the other hand is there an easy way to tell which pictures are real and which pictures are fake?
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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#5 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Incitement to violence via various media is a well argued topic in regards to TV and movies and much ink has been spilt about it. There is no doubt however about the tendency of such films and stories to arouse passion in the individual. We tend to rate media stuff in a category of hotness, don't we? And we mean by that the explicit arousal of sensations and thoughts associated with the activity in question (sex, violence, and combinations of those subjects, mostly but not exclusively).
I would assert that this would be a bad option for society to tolerate. I would not watch it nor produce it. I would not wish for my children to be exposed to it. If those criteria are met, I don't think I would legislate against it, but I assure you I would never advocate for it, and, if given opportunity, would actively oppose it at the ballot box. I would employ computer screening of sites, child-blocks, TV blocks and certainly parental discretion at the box office. That is, never would I embrace it, and I could tolerate it only out of sight and out of mind. That is legally and ethically speaking. Morally, a category not suggested, I find it reprehensible because of the incitement and inducement to engage children in inequalities of power about the issue of sexual expression. Phrase the question this way, is it legitimate to show adults in that fashion in unequal power arrangements in regard to sex? The feminists have taught us about that issue. Apply that equality here and it is patently offensive on the same grounds but worse because of the power differentials involved.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 05-02-2006 at 03:31 PM. |
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#6 |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ
Posts: 6,433
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******** MODERATOR WARNING ********
I think this is a very interesting topic, and I would like to see it stay open. So far, everyone has been very tactful in the discussion, and I would like it to stay that way. When posting in a topic like this, please think very carefully before making a post. Please stay away from sexual description or graphic discussion in this thread. Thank you, Tessar |
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#7 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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We're gonna need a definition of kidiporn by the way. Currently I believe its not illegal to posses pictures of naked children as long as they arent posed or engaged in a clearly sexual context. So the ones of you when you were 3 in the bathtub arent kidiporn. Even the 'nude beach' shots arent kidiporn. So what are we talking about here exactly? Strictly sexual stuff?
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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#8 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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A very relevant but sad topic ...
![]() I recall that case, GM.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#9 |
Andúril the White
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Your thoughts
Posts: 672
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As said elsewhere, I am for it. Obviously, rather CGI than the real deal.
Something to be concerned about, however, is the possibility of digitizing real pedophiliac material in such a way that it comes across as CGI. Thus far, I have not come across any of the CGI material in question that could possibly be mistaken for the real thing. It is getting closer, of course, but it isn't there yet. One could argue that the more realistic it becomes, the more people will opt for CGI child porn over actual child porn. At the same time, if the CGI effect is required, advances in modelling software technology should reduce cases of digital manipulation of the illegal material.
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Nothing can stop me now cause I just don't care. Last edited by Rev. Justin Timberlake : 05-04-2006 at 03:12 AM. |
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#10 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 301
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Quote:
I thought I'd be enough of a civil libertarian to accept this, but my reaction is ban it. OTOH, I'd accept written versions, but drawings or cartoons arouse the same reaction. Intellectual snobbery, or is there a difference? |
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#11 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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I think Inked summed it up pretty well, and I agree.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#12 | ||
Andúril the White
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Your thoughts
Posts: 672
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Quote:
There will always be a "market" for real kiddy porn, though. In the case of those particular people, the whole CGI argument is irrelevant. Even if CGI modelling progressed to the point of being interchangeable with reality. Quote:
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Nothing can stop me now cause I just don't care. |
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#13 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lost in the Opera House
Posts: 9,328
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here's my say on it...If this so called "kiddie porn" stays in the basement, let it be...just don't let it come to public light. And posting on the internet is also a No no, IMO, it accomplishes the same as other kid porn.
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#14 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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#15 | |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lost in the Opera House
Posts: 9,328
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Quote:
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ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide |
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#16 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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Quote:
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#17 | |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lost in the Opera House
Posts: 9,328
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Quote:
So maybe images don't make someone a pedophile...but SOMEBODY looks at them, and SOMEBODY is after kids...eh?
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ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide |
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#18 | |
Andúril the White
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Your thoughts
Posts: 672
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Quote:
Likewise the amputation clips. The vehicle fatality clips. Heh, none of the broken-bones-from-stupid-stunts clips compelled me to break my own limbs or get others to break theirs. But! We're not talking about actual child pornography here. We are talking about the equivalent of CGI beheadings. Computer generated killings.
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Nothing can stop me now cause I just don't care. |
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#19 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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#20 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lost in the Opera House
Posts: 9,328
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But the thing about porn is that it's power lies in addiction to it...it's a lot easier to get away with porn-looking, than killing someone.
While I don't necassarily think that looking at bad pictures makes you emulate or want to emulate them, I do believe that the porn pictures have a lot to do with whatever pedophile rampancy we have in this country...not EVERYONE is strong-willed against the power of pictures. CGI porn does the same harm to people as "real", though it doesn't involve the poor children.
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ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide |
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