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#1 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
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Could he be overthrown?
If Galadriel or Elrond claimed the One could they have overthrown Sauron. Sauron was a Maia spirit as was Gamdalf and Saruman which is why I didn't include them, but would the power of an elf bearing the One, be enough to overthrow a powerful Maia?
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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#2 |
The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot
Join Date: Aug 2004
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well T.D. I think that depends on how strong you think that Elrond and Galadriel are. As I think most of us agree they were the strongest of the elves at the time. If the ring had manifested enough power in them then yes they could have overthrown Sauron. But another thing is that we have no idea how the ring would work for an elf. It usually gives you the power you most want. Hobbits are very sly and clever and therefore invisibility would be a most excellent gift for them. However Elves as Elrond and Galadriel most want to preserve their lands so maybe it would do the same as the three did but to a much greater level.
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#3 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
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I doubt it. That was the power of th three, but the power of the One was destruction. There is another discussion going on about this in the 'Why did the Ring betray Isildur thread' if you want to check it out.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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#4 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
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We know so little about the functioning of the rings...
On one hand ,Sauron himself with the One could not take over the ME in the SA. On the other hand, Sauron was really worried, when he thought that Aragorn has got his ring and was planning to use it (after the Palantir session). I think Sauron's problem at the end of the TA was that he relied mostly on the 9 nazgul and 3 of the 7 Dwarven Rings that he has gathered to himself. If ANYONE wielded the One, Sauron would be very much under control himself, so he would be obliged to destrow his ring collection or bury it real deep. And then he will have problems controlling the nazgul and probably even orcs?...Though the orcs, IMHO, could be controlled without any additional power devices. |
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#5 | ||
Ring-smith
Join Date: Nov 2004
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#6 |
The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot
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But where does it say the ring was a destructive ring. IT was used that way by Sauron. But under Bilbo and Frodo it was used for going invisible. Not a very destructive force I might say. But then again Bilbo and Frodo never really tried to do anything else with it. Wouldnt it be embarassing for Frodo if he coudl have used the power to teleport himself ontop of Mt. Doom from Rivendell. THen because he used it only once just drop it in. THat would be quite ironic. Mind you I havent read HoME. So maybe its explained somwehere in there.
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#7 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Quote:
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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#8 |
The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot
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well if were now sayign that Sauron was not responsible for his actions after the ring was put on his finger then how do w know that he in fact did anything wrong. The ring was merely controlling him and he shouldnt be held accoutnable for it. Even his making of the ring shouldnt be considered evil merely intellectual theft of the elves. Im not saying I believe this though I wonder how many people I could tick off by doing so.
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#9 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Quote:
So, if anybody started wielding the One, Sauron will be controlled by this person -the new Ringlord - as an owner of 12 rings. |
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#10 |
The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
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i believe it is said somewhere that the rings of power granted mortals invisibility, haradrim, not just bilbo and frodo
elrond would have been able to overthrow sauron, he had the strains of elda, atani and maiar in him, galadriel was incredibly powerful, she coulfd have overthrown sauron, but would have become an immensely powerful, and ultimately evil, character, cirdan is the only one i would have trusted the one ring to, but even he would have turned to darkness |
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#11 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
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i think that Tolkien strongly hints that even Boromir, a mighty warrior and leader of men could with the power of the ring overcome and defeat Sauron: this more by raising armies and his power of battle and leadership than any internal "Power" eg as captain he holds off the attacks on Gondor but cannot hold the men in the face of the terror of the Nazgul: with his will to win and fight and defend his people and the one ring of power; the ring to rule them all on his hand i have no doubt he could then resist the NINE - whether the users of the ring would thus be ensnared to him i know not but my feeling is that either sauron ditches the rings he has or allows the ring-lord to control him through his control of those rings (at whatever point the new ring lord learns how to do so - as it is not a given that it would automatically happen overnight if at all?): it's stated that sauron was affraid of what mighty one may suddenly appear bringing war with the ring etc: certainly he feared Isludir's heir, also therefore elrond, galadriel, Gandalf etc all could have defeated him, but is not the point that ultimately the ring (or Sauron if you like as the greater part of his strength or spirit was in the ring) would have won (kind of) in that the ring would have corrupted the bearer as Gandalf, Elrond and Galdriel all testify to? That it was too powerful and too tempting but ultimately evil. Gandalf: i would use it with a will to do good, but htrough me ... galdriel: instead of a .. queen of the night all love me and despair etc: does this not tell us that the ring is different to the three or the nine or the 7 etc: it was made as cereimbor noticed to domineer and forcibly take the other rings, it was a ring that desired power and domination: and if wielded by a will of adamant could be lethal and all powerful.
My understanding though was that it would take time to control and learn to use the ring to the full - so would they have had time if it hadn't been destroyed? |
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#12 |
The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot
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Hey wait I have a question if Sauron didnt have the onering how did he control the nine. Cuza they were corrupted byt the ring and answered to it. Shouldnt they have served whoever had it.
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#13 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Quote:
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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#14 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Quote:
Or would the ring only truly control in full the other rings if they were all joined (one ring to bind them) i.e. if Sauron - or whoever - got the three as well? |
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#15 | ||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Quote:
Quote:
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The Nine with their rings on would have served ANY RINGLORD, powerful enough to wield the One to its full power. Sauron lost the One, but the cunning Maia took the 9 from the nazgul, so, at the time of LOTR, he wore the 9 rings himself (a ring per finger ![]() So if the new ringlord appeared, the nazgul would be torn by conflicting wills (Sauron's through the 9 and new ringlord's through the One). Moreover, Sauron would not be able to continue wearing the nine rings, because that would put HIMSELF under control of the new ringlord with the One. He will then have two options: 1. hide the 9, then the nazgul would be free to desert to the new Ringlord. 2. destroy the 9: then IMHO the nazgul will be destroyed as well, but poor Sauron will be left with only 3 dwarven rings that he could not wield either. Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 03-30-2005 at 05:23 AM. |
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#16 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
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Quote:
Also, I'm curious, where does it say that Sauron wear the Nine? I presumed the Nazgûl did.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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#17 |
The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
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IIRC, sauron does indeed not only control, but physically wear the nine, but seeing as he has only nine fingers (what with Isildur's "help"), if he got the One, which Nazgul ring would he remove? The witch king i would presume, seeing as how, in UT, it is stated that he was the one of the nine most bent to his master's will.
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#18 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
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I doubt that Sauron would physically wear the Nine. I rather think the Nazgul would still need them in some way. Although it might be simply because a Dark Lord with 9 rings would looks so.... silly.
I also doubt that any Men or Elf would be able to unlock the whole potential of the Ring like Sauron could. Sauron poured much of his strength into that Ring, so it would stand to reason that he alone could wield it. The Ring desired greatly to return to Sauron, not to be worn by any other great lord or lady. Nevertheless, an opponent, who could put at least a portion of the power of the One to use to rally armies and gather strength, could still be a great enemy to Mordor and might eventually come out victorious, but only by means of arms and Sauron would not be destroyed as he was when the One was destroyed.
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#19 |
The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot
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Wel IMO I dont think Sauron wore the 9. Cuz if he did how would the Nine have had their powers. Also IMO they were corrupted because the one ahd the power to control all the other rings. Unfortunately the elves took theirs offf and the dwarves didnt really do much except get really greedy. So he controlled the nine because he held the one and they responded to the one. When Isildur went and chopped off hsi finger the Nazgul should have stopped listening to Sauron. Or mayeb not immediately but gradually. (old dogs. New tricks and such) So why would they have followed him in LOTR.
Another question. Does it ever actually say that they served Sauron in LOTR. I mead Gandalf says they heard their masters call but couldnt that also mean the ring. As the ring was really the master. Of course this is all IMO.
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#20 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Mar 2005
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I totally agree Haradrim. Your ideas are well founded and you are obivously a very intelligent young adult. I wish I could be you and everything you are. THough seriosuly to add on to what I said earliar I think maybe Sauronhad them under his influence for so long that they just no longer require the ring to be in his possesion. OR it could be as I think Olmer said somewhere. THe ring transfers powers back to Sauron which is why he coudl see you when you wore it. SO therefore he could still control the nine.
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Newly Reincarnated from Haradrim Here is my permanent apology for off-topicing. If I do it, which i will, I am sorry. I feel bad about it but being an elfbit messes with your head and things get wonky so spamming is almost inevitable. There will be good replys but for when I do off-topic I am deeply sorry. Offical title: Morgoth the Elfbit: Un-Official Court Jester of the Entmoot At Your Service.... BOW TO ME! Miranda Otto is hot! I Kinda Like Feanor.... (meep) |
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