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#1 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mirkwood, well actually I live in North-west Scania, Sweden
Posts: 9,481
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A Trade of Abominations.
Is it now the time for the Muslims to behave even more abominably?
I mean some Christians haven't exactly been paragons of decent behaviour during the last two thousand years, with their witch hunts, 30 years wars and Crusades. |
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#2 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Reality
Posts: 5,340
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I'm not following you Grey Wolf (I usually don't
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#3 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Merry old England
Posts: 413
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No, it would be a crucial flaw to do that! Fundamentally, nothing has changed. There's still war, disease, famine and hardship in the world and the fundamental good messages of what you call '100s of years ago' is still true today.
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Take up the White Man's burden-- The savage wars of peace-- Fill full the mouth of Famine, And bid the sickness cease; And when your goal is nearest (The end for others sought) Watch sloth and heathen folly Bring all your hope to nought. |
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#4 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mirkwood, well actually I live in North-west Scania, Sweden
Posts: 9,481
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Quote:
I didn't mean that the Muslims SHOULD do what they are doing. What I meant was, that since the Christians have been behaving in the ways I described, I was wondering if the carbombings and terrorism is the Muslims way of dishing out their crap on the world. Last edited by Grey_Wolf : 06-26-2004 at 12:23 PM. |
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#5 | |
Domesticated Swing Babe
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Reality
Posts: 5,340
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Quote:
![]() And Radagast...I don't know about "fundamentally" (wacky word that is pretty subjective) but I think almost EVERYTHING has changed. We have answers to many of the questions (because of modern science) that cause antiquated religions to come about. The black books with "the teachings" are centuries and centuries old, and have small value (IMO) in this modern world of global communications, mastery and ruination of the environment, extreme over population. Religions are being used as politics and this is bad. Sure, kernals of moralistic truths can be found, but there is too much confusing and/or useless info in the tradtional religions to serve man in these modern times. So, I say we need to keep the good stuff (people get together in groups and have lovely ceremonies centered around try to help one another) and chuck the rest. ![]() Last edited by Lizra : 06-26-2004 at 01:32 PM. |
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#6 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Merry old England
Posts: 413
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Our superiority over a few centuries ago is purely superficial. It is now almost dogma to quote as you do phrases like 'this modern world of global communications' but, in essence, our differences are only in perspective. We stand here now upon the beginning of the third millenium with remarkable technological feats that frequently astound us with our own ingenuity and cunning. But have we changed? No, every man is a quotation from his ancestors and we have, perhaps, impressed ourselves with our own cleverness by solving some of the mysteries of nature but the purpose of this millenia old religion is not to explain how (which has, as you say, been proved inaccurate) but to say why.
Religion has inspired men to some of the greatest deeds and feats humanity has ever known, and it has also brought men to deeds worthy of the blackest Abyss of hell. Do you think 'lovely ceremonies centered around try to help one another' would work in the same way? One of the things I will always remember of my grandfather was his advice to me: 'Fear God, tell the truth and don't dawdle.' I have always tried not to dissappoint him.
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Take up the White Man's burden-- The savage wars of peace-- Fill full the mouth of Famine, And bid the sickness cease; And when your goal is nearest (The end for others sought) Watch sloth and heathen folly Bring all your hope to nought. |
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#7 | |
Domesticated Swing Babe
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Reality
Posts: 5,340
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Quote:
"Fear God".... I don't believe in god, so, nothing to fear. ![]() ![]() Anyway, my ancestors (whoever they were) lived in a very different world, and were preoccupied with very different issues (IMO) ....growing food, understanding health issues that they had no clue about, keeping warm etc. God worship seems to have centered around a supernatural being who made "miracles" happen, and as far as I'm concerned, books written 2000 years ago are not what I'm interested in. Explaining and "knowing why" seem pretty similar to me. Yes, Lovely ceremonies and trying to help each ohter will do just fine for me. I don't think mankind needs unproveable/unbelievable religions to do wonderful or horrible deeds. Inspiration should be found elsewhere. Last edited by Lizra : 06-26-2004 at 02:04 PM. |
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#8 | |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
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Re: A Trade of Abominations.
Quote:
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 06-26-2004 at 04:33 PM. |
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#9 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mirkwood, well actually I live in North-west Scania, Sweden
Posts: 9,481
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Re: Re: A Trade of Abominations.
Quote:
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#10 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Durham, England
Posts: 694
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Quote:
And many religious pratices ARE rooted in what was a concern at the time of their formalisation but is no longer relevant - avoiding certain meats in the Middle East in the days before refridgeration, for a start. The sets of beliefs that gained widespread credence in the cradles of civilisation at the time when their was enough literacy to record them and spread their ideas are the ones that now count as recognised religions. Seems more like a case of being in the right place at the right time rather than speaking of any unalterable truth about the human condition.
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#11 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Reality
Posts: 5,340
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Good points! I certainly have truoble with "unalterable truths". I believe we should always be able to change (if neccessary
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#12 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Quote:
As for the Crusades - that was fought because MUSLIMS had been attacking and moving into Europe. Thje Crusades was a response to their attempt to take over Europe. It then moved into freeing the holy lands.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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#13 | |
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Narnia
Posts: 1,656
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Quote:
1. Boredom (it was an adventure) 2. Land in the East (primogeniture left a lot of younger sons with nothing for themselves) 3. Release from prison/debts 4. Promises of going straight to heaven when they die 5. Economic aspects of the East It wasn't merely a "Let's go kill those heathens" kind of thing.
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
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#14 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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#15 | |
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Narnia
Posts: 1,656
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Quote:
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
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#16 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Durham, England
Posts: 694
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Hmm yes the Moors invaded Spain early in the 8th Century I think and it wan't too long before the surviving Christian kingdoms in the north started to gradually push them back. And Contantinople fell in the mid 15th century. You can't really tie those events directly with the Crusades which started in the late 11th century, a long time after the Muslim invasion of Europe in the west and a long time before the invasion in the east.
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I'm beset by self-doubt ....or am I? |
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#17 | |
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Narnia
Posts: 1,656
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from Encyclopaedia Britannica
Quote:
What was my point? lol
__________________
Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
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#18 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Reality
Posts: 5,340
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That the Crusades were to halt Muslim expansion?
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#19 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Well the whole point is that the Crusades was not an [edit]unwarranted[/edit] act against muslims that it is often portrayed as. Muslims, in addition to trying to take over Europe, had shut off the holy lands to chrisitian pilgrims. This caused an outrage in in Christian Europe and is why the fight extended to Jerusalem.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 06-28-2004 at 04:14 PM. |
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#20 |
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Narnia
Posts: 1,656
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Thanks Lizra and JD for straightening out my cluttered mind!
__________________
Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
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