03-09-2004, 03:37 PM | #1 |
Elf Lord
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Sea route for Fellowship?
This is similar to an earlier thread I started, but perhaps there are some new views on this sort of "alternate FOTR" path that Tolkien might have had them pursue rather then Hollin, Moria, Lorien, and the Anduin.
There seems an obvious alternate way the Fellowship could have taken to get in the vicinity of Mordor, a sort of "back door". Have Cirdan provide a small fleet of ships to sail south. While it would have been too dangerous (Corsairs) to go all the way to the mouth of Anduin, they could have landed in the Druwaith Iaur and gone over passes into Anfalas. Sauron never had a navy and of course Saruman didn't. This could have worked if Tolkien had the quest start in the summer, either with Gandalf, the hobbits, and perhaps Aragorn heading immediately west, or with the Council of Elrond held in the spring or summer (when the East-West Road was much safer, then have Boromir, Aragorn, Gandalf, Legolas and Gimli head to Hobbiton or Bree to decide on "ways and means" with Frodo and so go on to the Gray Havens. Rohan and the Paths of the Dead could still have been theoretically incorporated, and perhaps even Fangorn, and it seems not unlikely that Cirdan would have cooperated (as he did going back to the First Age, especially with his good working relationship with Gandalf. Any opinions, other ideas?
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03-09-2004, 04:18 PM | #2 |
The Intermittent One
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i have had some thoughts along those lines aswell,
but they do not need to travel by boat, from rivendell, they follow greyflood to the sea, and continue along the coast, passin into gondor at it's most western point |
03-09-2004, 05:32 PM | #3 |
Elf Lord
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That wouldn't be a bad alternate route. They could walk to Tharbad. Then use hidden small boats left by Rangers to go to the ruins of Lond Daer. Gandalf opined it would take too long and they'd be seen going through Enedwaith, but such a land/river path might be possible, and would keep intact the storyline through the Council of Elrond. Perhaps Ranger scouts at Lond Daer could advise of trouble with Saruman and Wormtongue and Frodo would decide there to leave, with Boromir being killed by Saruman's forces around the Angren?
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06-01-2004, 10:46 AM | #4 |
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C'mon silly... Hobbits don't like boats!
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06-01-2004, 01:58 PM | #5 |
Long lost mooter
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I missed this thread the first time around!
Wouldn't a sea route have taken much longer? Plus the fact that they wouldn't have had such "rest stops" as Rivendell and Lothlorien. True, Tolkien could have included others, but I'll tell you why I think the main reason was. Tolkien seemed to pattern Frodo's journey after Bilbo's at first, leaving at the same age, down the same path, in the same direction, and staying in Rivendell. Whether out of a sense of nostalgia, to give the reader a feeling of familiarity, or if he simply didn't know where to begin in writing a sequel to The Hobbit and decided to use what worked before (or maybe all three), I don't know. Maybe he just felt more comfortable going in the same direction as before, and thought the reader might also. Add to that the fact that he had in TH set up the East as being the Wild country, and you can figure why he did it that way. But as to whether it could have been an alternate route, sure. I wonder what adventures they would have had then! If they had had an uneventful sea journey, it might have been safer for them, but of course the old argument pops up that then the course of things would have changed, and might have led to a different conclusion. |
06-01-2004, 02:46 PM | #6 |
Elf Lord
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Yep, I'm sure JRRT wanted to work in Lorien and Moria. A searoute to the Druwaith Iaur could still have worked in Rohan and Fangorn (part of Fellowship goes that way, perhaps Gandalf's idea?), but it would be difficult to include Moria. Of course, Moria might be relocated to the White Mountains, and Lorien could have a chapter, or part of one, actually featuring the three battles during the War of the Ring, perhaps Gimli and Legolas are sent there? Or maybe there would be a semi-lost dwarf colony in the south Ered Lithui. Oh, and the gang of four would still go to Rivendell and form the Fellowship. Then ride horses east to the Grey Havens (remember, the land had been scouted as safe before they left Rivendell). A searoute would be much faster (unless they met pirates .
As for hobbits being afraid of water, what, just because your mother and father drowned (in perhaps a sensational mutual murder ) that would put off a hobbit? And besides, how do you think Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam got to the Undying Lands (took a 747 or an airbus, no more concordes).
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06-01-2004, 03:45 PM | #7 |
Elf Lord
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I don't understand - you say, that the fellowship should go to a ship in the Grey Heavens, get to Druwaith Iaur, and so get faster to Fangorn and Rohan?
Gandalf didn't want to go in the Gap of Rohan because Saruman was too close. They could as well, if they went in the way you suggest, go in the land southward, pass in the Gap of Rohan - the way Boromir came to Rivendell. But Gandalf said it's too risky. And why does 'Druwaith Iaur' translated as 'Druwaith Laur'? |
06-01-2004, 04:17 PM | #8 |
Elf Lord
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" I don't understand - you say, that the fellowship should go to a ship in the Grey Heavens, get to Druwaith Iaur, and so get faster to Fangorn and Rohan?
Gandalf didn't want to go in the Gap of Rohan because Saruman was too close. They could as well, if they went in the way you suggest, go in the land southward, pass in the Gap of Rohan - the way Boromir came to Rivendell. But Gandalf said it's too risky." ___________________________ Ah, not exactly. The theory in the sea scenario is that they would plan to travel overland from the Druwaith through South Gondor to the Anduin. Given the Medievalish transportation systems of Middle-earth sea travel is usually by far the fastest, and by sailing in elvish ships hugging the coast, probably the safest, providing they don't sail further south to Corsair territory. Gandalf might (upon landing in the Druwaith hear about Rohan problems (perhaps from riders fleeing Saruman's assaults on the fords, and decide to go there with Legolas, Gimli, Merry, and Pippin. The other four could be attacked by a band of orcs, Boromir killed, and Aragorn decide to check out the Army of the Dead when Frodo and Sam take off. Well, it's a theory
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06-03-2004, 05:12 AM | #9 |
Elf Lord
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How would they cross the Anduin? Gondor wasn't teeming with people but wouldn't someone have noticed them (especially when they tried to cross the river)? Wasn't the point of the Fellowship secrecy?
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09-04-2004, 11:43 AM | #10 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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They could have had Gwahir and a fllet of eagles to fly the Fellowship over Mount Doom where Frodo then drops the Ring into the fire.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-04-2004, 01:33 PM | #11 |
Elf Lord
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(That idea, again... *sigh*)
It seems very easy, doesn't it? Just fly to Mordor... when all the dangers are close to the ground... First, they aren't - there are dangers in the air - the Nazgul. Second, I think the eagles weren't supposed to be invovled much.. I think they were more like senders of Manwe, like always. I don't think they'd agree to carry the fellowship to the Mountain. Gwaihir didn't agree to carry Gandalf far, too - think how much energy you need to fly so many miles with a person on their back. Third, it wouldn't be as interesting. |
09-04-2004, 01:36 PM | #12 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Maybe the Nazgul were in the air but isn't it said in RotK that they could out fly them but I agree on the interesting part.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-04-2004, 01:41 PM | #13 | |
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09-04-2004, 01:42 PM | #14 | |
Elf Lord
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09-04-2004, 01:46 PM | #15 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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And if they had have done that when they were at Rivendell there would have been a good chance that the Nazgul wouldn't have reached Mordor by the so Sauron could think that he had captured the Ring.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-04-2004, 02:20 PM | #16 | |
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09-04-2004, 02:34 PM | #17 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Maybe but it would still hav been the easiest way.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-04-2004, 03:00 PM | #18 | |
Elf Lord
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09-04-2004, 03:04 PM | #19 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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But it took the Nazgûl quite a long time to reach the Anduin from the Northern borders of Gondor in UT and that was when there wasfive of them so it would take them alot longer to get to Mordor from the Brunien separtly.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-04-2004, 03:14 PM | #20 | |
Elf Lord
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