07-28-2003, 03:57 AM | #1821 |
Elf Lord
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Once again, I really enjoyed thinking about your response post. I hope you see the transition I make in moving from arrogance to apologetics.
Here's the simplified version of what I'm trying to say: Let's say there's a scientist who believes dinosaurs evolved into birds. "That's arrogant!" said several other people. "How can you believe that's the only one truth!" "I believe dinosaurs all drowned in a world wide flood!" "I believe dinosaurs couldn't adapt to their changing environment, so they went extinct." "I believe dinosaurs died by an astroid collision with the Earth!" "I think you're all right," said another person. "Hang on," said a somewhat smart one of them. "That doesn't make any sense. Dinosaurs couldn't have both all died in a world wide flood, and all died because of an astroid collision, and if either of those are true, they couldn't have died out because of changing environment." "I believe it because of the fossils," the scientist answered them. "Because of this evidence, this evidence, and this evidence." (He gives the evidences- I don't know them all ) I'm demonstrating in this example that none of them are arrogant, but only one of them can be right. The one who thought they were all right is the most certain to be wrong, since he's got no logic whatsoever in his argument. The one who's evidence is strongest is the one to be believed. That person is not arrogant because he speaks out for what he believes. |
07-28-2003, 04:01 AM | #1822 |
Elf Lord
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Do you understand where I'm coming from, now?
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07-28-2003, 06:02 AM | #1823 | ||
Elven Warrior
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And, to follow Leif's example, with the person who thinks everyone's right .... well, there's no reason at all, as far as I know, why some dinosaurs couldn't have died from an asteroid collision, or in subsequent flooding - maybe from changing environment - and some dinosaurs remained to evolve. I believe there is evidence to support flood, asteroid collision, changing environment ... as well as evolution. As I say, I believe Christianity is unique. But that doesn't mean that other ways don't see a truth also. It's just that Christianity doesn't necessarily see the other ways as 'the truth, or way to the truth. I hope that makes sense |
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07-28-2003, 08:58 AM | #1824 |
Elf Lord
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Hemel, Lief: very well thought out and well-written posts; I think you sum it up pretty clearly.
Bravo to you both!
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
07-28-2003, 11:01 AM | #1825 | |||||
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To address your 'some people in heaven receive greater rewards than others' statement: so your god plays favorites with those that played for the right team and those that played for the wrong team? hmmm... that sounds quite petty and immature. To address your 1=1 statement on Truth, here's the REAL TRUTH: you are wasting your time worshipping something that doesn't exist. You are correct, if there are so many religions around the world how can only one be correct. Therefore all are flawed. If all religions are flawed and do not represent the REAL TRUTH, it breaks down the foundation of each religion. Once that foundation breaks down... well, do I need to say more? Your dinosaur analogy does not fit into religion. A religion requires your obedience and belief that all of what is doctrine for that religion is the unwavering Truth. Are you saying that you have doubts? Quote:
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07-28-2003, 11:09 AM | #1826 |
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I have to stop mid-read and say....I like your *real truth*! There it is! That's it! That's it! Yea!
About "The Case for Christ", wasn't this addressed earlier? That book is written by a church pastor, it was not impartial, and he certainly was NOT an eyewitness to the events, which is his whole approach. The "eyewitnesses" he talks about come from biblical inference, and since the bible is mythology....it just is another pretty story that tugs at the heart strings. *Jesus of Nazareth, a lovely man with wonderful ideas about love and equality before his time, nailed up like that and crucified, (like many people of that time) in such a heinous manner*, that is sad....but "son of god" (a mythical being) er...I don't think so!
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07-28-2003, 12:27 PM | #1827 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Lizra, did you even see my response to your "The Case for Christ" comments? The book is about .... *drum roll* .... the "Case for Christ"! It is NOT misrepresented at all, the very TITLE says it's presenting a case for Christ! The author chooses to investigate the case for Christ because of the huge (and good!) personal change he saw happen in his wife after she became a Christian. He was already very familiar with the case AGAINST Christ; that's why he chose to look into the case FOR Christ and impartially evaluate it using the techniques he learned in investigative reporting. Perhaps he will write "The Case Against Christ" next, in the same format. But if you're at all interested in even looking into the case FOR Christ, it makes sense to read a book like this. If you're not interested in even looking into the evidence for Christ, then don't read the book.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
07-28-2003, 12:47 PM | #1828 | |||||
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link 1, link 2, link 3, link 4, link 5 If you're interested, you can read them. If you're not interested, then .... don't. But if you don't, then you can't claim a contradiction anymore, either, because I'm showing how it's NOT a contradiction. Quote:
My surgery should be around the end of August, and I hope to finish off the evolution thread first (or at least finish off my summary and get it posted). I don't like to have too many difficult topics going at once - I end up not being able to do justice to any.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 07-28-2003 at 12:59 PM. |
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07-28-2003, 01:03 PM | #1829 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Hey, Hemel, nice to meet you! Welcome to the thread
I originally started this thread as a place for intelligent, considerate discussion of a certain topic (omnipotence) in Christianity. When that topic was finished, we've discussed other topics in Christianity, such as the doctrine of hell. Anyone with polite, thoughtful comments to make (like you) is welcome to join in.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
07-28-2003, 01:15 PM | #1830 | ||
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Nice posts, Lief - I miss you! I hope the SAT studying is finished soon and you do well.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 07-28-2003 at 01:21 PM. |
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07-28-2003, 01:21 PM | #1831 | |
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I was interested....that's why I read it, and I was really irked when Master Mothra mentioned that Strobel was actually a pastor. I do have a problem with that. If a guy is a pastor of a church with 30,000 (according to MM) I would be suspcious of his reasons for publishing such a book. It's really just another sermon. Besides, the book's case is as I stated, based on second and third generation biblical reports. Other than the sympathy you feel for Jesus of Nazareth, the son of god bit is not proved at all, just something gleaned from the bible, which I veiw as a book of mythology.
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07-28-2003, 01:30 PM | #1832 |
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Here's the link - Case for Christ discussion. And really, as I said in the linked post, if a person believes Christianity to be true, isn't it a natural and logical desire to want to be a pastor? He already is pastor of a big church; are you saying he wrote the book to get more people to go to his church? It's natural for a person that believes the theory of evolution to be true to write a book on the subject, isn't it? There's a lot of difficulties associated with really large churches, BTW - I imagine, if he were allowed to make a selfish choice, that he would prefer a smaller one.
It seems that the natural and logical reason he wrote the book was because he, personally, as an adult, studied the case for Christ, BECAUSE of a great change for the better he saw in his wife, and found the case to be a very good one, which he wanted to share. He was NOT a Christian when he started the research given in "The Case for Christ".
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
07-28-2003, 04:10 PM | #1833 |
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How do you know he was not a christian when he started the book? Where does it say that? I looked at the intro again, and saw no mention of his church. I would think it would take a goodly amount of years to go from Atheist....to.... pastor of a huge, highly successful church! Don't people have to get college degrees and work up the ladder to become pastors? Or no?
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07-28-2003, 05:38 PM | #1834 |
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I just got in from my errands - had a nice phone conversation on the way - I'm off to my daughter's ballet class in a few minutes, and I'll take the book with me and find the section.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
07-28-2003, 06:08 PM | #1835 | |
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I agree with Lizra. I think Strobel misrepresented himself. I think the book was written for two purposes and one of those purposes, to tap into the lucrative Christian book market. The other purpose, obviously, was to bring more people to his church. How much did he increase his weekly income (from the offerings of the congregation) with this bit of publicity?
I have serious doubts that he was anything but a Christian before he wrote the book, or even before he became a pastor of his church. If he was anything but a Christian, I want to see evidence of this. Quote:
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07-28-2003, 08:31 PM | #1836 |
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Oh my gosh! Did someone say "an end"! Yea! End it!
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07-28-2003, 08:47 PM | #1837 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Lizra and Ruinel - here it is, in the Introduction -
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Of course you could claim Strobel misrepresented himself *yawn* - really, you could say that about ANY book, couldn't you? And what's wrong with getting book sale profits if you're a writer? Well? And do you doubt the motives of a biologist that believes in evolution and works for an institution that promotes evolution as the correct theory and writes a book about it? My goodness! And pastors are typically paid fixed salaries, from what I know of the field - they don't get a "cut" from the weekly offerings. Salaries are budget items, at least in the churches I've been in. And Lizra - Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 07-28-2003 at 08:48 PM. |
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07-28-2003, 08:51 PM | #1838 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Oh, and our pastor started our church about 7 years ago in someone's living room. He has a degree from Master's Seminary, IIRC. I imagine Willow Creek is somewhat like our church - I believe it's nondenominational. You're probably thinking of denominational churches.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
07-28-2003, 08:54 PM | #1839 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-28-2003, 09:32 PM | #1840 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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OK, from the homepage for Strobel's books -
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 07-28-2003 at 09:39 PM. |
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