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08-31-2007, 02:45 AM | #161 |
Elf Lady
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In the lands where mountains are but a fairytale
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Ah, smart. Very smart indeed!
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Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply.
...The Earth laughs in flowers ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Hamatreya"... |
08-31-2007, 02:57 AM | #162 | |||||||||||||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
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Lotesse: Aw, give Lief a break. I spent something like 3 hours writing two posts the other day.
OldHippie: Jimmy Hoffa for the win! Haha. Ingwe: Your country is awesome. I think we should establish closer economic ties. Quote:
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Speaking of which, I think your country might fall under the definition of a theocracy. I think that you are establishing a "government of a state by immediate divine guidance," but I'm not sure since Mirriam-Webster on-line has given a really crap definition (but here's the link anyway). Quote:
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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08-31-2007, 03:51 AM | #163 | |
of the House of Fëanor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
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08-31-2007, 05:06 AM | #164 | |||||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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. . . I think not . I actually think we're a very, very happy country and most content right where we are. Quote:
It seems a somewhat weak definition, for not only is it not very explicit about this, but really every government official has some kinds of beliefs regarding theology, even if his beliefs are all unbeliefs, and his behaviors are going to be influenced by his true beliefs. If he thinks things are fine that a Christian thinks are wrong, that often will come partly from his personal views about God or reality, from his personal philosophy. Since everyone's beliefs about God motivate their behavior for good or ill, beliefs about or of religion are going to always influence how government is run. Even laws based on secularism are of a religious nature, for secularism involves certain assumptions about reality and about God. Saying that it simply has no assumptions is false- it does have assumptions, underlying beliefs. One assumption is that that religions shouldn't be in places of power, that humans can come up with better ideas than any kind of God can. For why rely on humanity if one can get better ideas from God? But seeing as the idea that humans can come up with better ideas than God can is clearly ludicrous, secularism must assume further that God chooses not to involve himself with people or for some other reason his will can't be known or relied on, or he doesn't exist. It's logical that if God existed and could make his will known to men, then we wouldn't need secularism. Therefore he either does not exist or does not make his will known to men. These ideas are all essential backing for the secularist framework in the government. If we did not assume them, we would not place human judgment over all religions and thus over the will of any god. And these founding principles of secularism are all evil lies from Satan. Secularism is a belief system like any other, and it has definite ties to religion in that it has ideas about God and establishes laws based on those ideas. So that's a form of theocracy. If it's not immediate divine guidance, it's immediate guidance by ideas about the divine. Which is probably what is meant by immediate divine guidance anyway. Secularism is an ideology based upon religious ideas that underlies our Western laws. Quote:
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There are probably other variants of that. The kinds that I was arguing might be justified are cases where there's no other way to pay a debt one owes other than slavery, and cases where you take prisoners of war but can't afford to keep them prisoners while feeding them from your own food reserves, for that would deplete your storage, and neither can you let them go, because they'd still be your enemies and might attack you again, so your only solution is to make them work while being prisoners, which comes out to slavery. In those cases, necessity is involved. Also cases where you can't afford to employ someone, but you could afford to feed him or her if he or she worked a lot for you, so you take care of him or her while he or she is your slave. He or she has no other recourse and neither do you. In cases where one is just exploiting other people and abusing them, slavery is certainly not justified. Quote:
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But in cases where slavery involves one person just exploiting other people, it is not justified. When the slave owner has no choice but is required to do what he's doing out of necessity (as in cases of prisoners of war), or has enslaved someone temporarily until that person has payed a debt he owes, then slavery is justified. Quote:
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Though honestly, I'm not actually that bad. Or at least I don't think I am. *Tries to sound extremely convincing.* Maybe I should have left these last three sentences out of this paragraph . . . might have been more convincing . . .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-31-2007 at 05:47 AM. |
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08-31-2007, 04:45 PM | #165 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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As for the learned, they didn't always agree, but it wasn't very often that they would go against the dogmatic teaching of the Church, if that's what you mean by "ideologically pure".
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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08-31-2007, 05:08 PM | #166 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Are you sure you're not just trying to make secularism sound worse than it actually is, just because you don't like it?
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We are not things. |
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08-31-2007, 09:14 PM | #167 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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It makes logical sense that God (if he exists), having made the universe, would know how to do things better than humans. So it's logical we'd want his involvement in our governments if we could actually truly have it, right? If your answer to that is yes, then the primary reasons I can see for separating church and state would be that either God doesn't exist or humans can't know what his will is. For if God exists and humans can know his will, then it makes sense to say that church and state should be quite strongly entwined, seeing as religion is the means by which people claim to know God and his will, and God might have ideas about how a state should be run that work better than the ideas humans have. If God doesn't exist, though, or God's will can't be known by humans, then it would be very logical for us to turn to secularism. Many Christians nowadays are afraid of a political church because they think political power would corrupt it. There probably would indeed be some corruption. However, the idea that this is a good enough reason to separate church and state is a similar one to the "God exists but his will can't be known" category of reasoning for secularism that I listed above, because it assumes that he exists, but he can't make his will known to politicians. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-31-2007 at 09:20 PM. |
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08-31-2007, 10:14 PM | #168 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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Guys, you have to understand. Slavery is not an abstract issue, or an historical footnote. It's a current event, and not only in the 3rd world.
Here, from the department of state website. In FY 2006, the U.S. Government obligated approximately $74 million to 154 international anti-trafficking in persons (TIP) projects in 70 countries and $28.5 million to 70 domestic anti-TIP projects. These projects are working to ensure human trafficking is prevented, the survivors are protected, and the traffickers are put in jail. They are funded through the coordinated efforts and program funds of the Departments of State, Justice, Labor, Health and Human Services, and USAID. http://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/fs/07/83372.htm They're spending twenty eight and a half million dollars on anti-slavery activity IN the USA. Approximately 600,000 to 800,000 victims annually are trafficked across international borders worldwide, and between 14,500 and 17,500 of those victims are trafficked into the U.S., according to the U.S. Department of State. http://www.acf.hhs.gov/trafficking/a...act_human.html It's a big problem. Now.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
09-01-2007, 01:15 AM | #169 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
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Unfortunately, it turned out that they all knew different things about His will, and were quite willing to slaughter anyone who disagreed. After watching the horrors of the Wars of Religion engulf Christendom for more than a century, people like Jefferson and Madison, drawing largely on the works of John Locke, decided it was far better to keep religion out of the public sphere, rather than risk a repeat. (Jefferson explicitly extends tolerance to Jews, Mohametans and Hindoos; Madison wanted to go as far as to ban official chaplains from the Army and Navy.) That is why the US Constitution opens with the phrase "We the People". The Founding Fathers deliberately chose to keep God out of the Constitution, after much debate, which is why Patrick Henry denounced it, and many devout Americans rejected it as a Godless abhomination well into the 19th Century.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 09-01-2007 at 01:20 AM. |
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09-01-2007, 01:27 AM | #170 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
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Should be "which is one reason why Patrick henry denounced it..."; he had others.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
09-01-2007, 03:34 AM | #171 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-01-2007, 05:58 AM | #172 |
Elf Lady
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In the lands where mountains are but a fairytale
Posts: 8,588
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Do you believe you can really seperate state and religion? Even when there is an official line, if all the practisers are Prostestant for example, their actions etc. will also be Protestant, because the law is just a written thing, the interpreters and users are the people using and shaping the result of that law.
I don't believe secularism to be a big problem, because there wouldn't be much secularism in practice if everyone believed the same things and had the same strong faith. Seriously, in my opinion trying to fight secularism is fighting not the cause but the consequence. I always think it's funny that people see Christianity as 1 whole, just the same with the Islam etc., not realising there are many factions and many different interpretations of those same holy texts and believes. But that is a different thing.
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Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply.
...The Earth laughs in flowers ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Hamatreya"... |
09-01-2007, 06:23 AM | #173 | ||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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There are many different religions in the world. Fact. They all think they've got it right. Fact. Our societies/nations are a mix of several religions and they're all different from one another. How to pick one to rule an entire nation with it? Secularism refuses to choose one above the others, as far as state control is involved. It allows people the freedom of religion, but denies them a tool to enforce it on others. Quote:
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We are not things. |
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09-01-2007, 01:43 PM | #174 | |||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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When Christianity first came onto the world scene, the government had developed to the point that it was essentially one madman doing whatever he wanted to whoever he wanted, living in the most bloated opulence imaginable, he and his nobility having all their whims met by countless slaves, the emperor claiming to be God, keeping the people happy with gladiatorial games, and almost invariably ending up getting himself assassinated. There were a handful of good emperors, but very few and far between. My suspicion is that they got an F on their homework . So I think that after they had proven themselves utter failures, God took power out of their hands and placed it in the hands of Christians, thus creating a kingdom that lasted over a thousand years. Quote:
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According to the Bible, God guarantees that he will communicate and commune with those who will listen to him. Ignoring that option completely without even quite caring about its existence seems to show a glorified view of humanity's abilities to work things out correctly (which is unjustified, considering human history) and a rather odd indifference to examining and perhaps making use of an Alternative that might otherwise extravagantly bless human civilization. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-01-2007 at 01:59 PM. |
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09-01-2007, 02:12 PM | #175 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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I find the great fragmentation of Christianity to be very sad. For where there are many contradictions, there are bound to be many people in error in the debated beliefs. I expect that many Muslims would probably have the same perspective on the fragmentation of Islam.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-01-2007 at 02:19 PM. |
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09-01-2007, 03:40 PM | #176 | |||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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However, three centuries ago we may never have had this conversation. I probably had been married to a man not of my choosing, had half a dozen kids, may have been a granny, and very likely never had a decent education to even understand these topics. If I hadn't been killed off at 6 by a child-disease, that is. Let others praise ancient times, I say, I'm glad I'm born in these. Suffice to say, I suppose, that your country will be a theocracy, and mine will be a secular state and we'll both be very confortable with it.
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We are not things. |
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09-01-2007, 04:31 PM | #177 | |||
Elf Lord
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Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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*Struggles with all his might to restrain himself, struggles, struggles, but just has to bite out from between his teeth,* two of my cousins saw angels yesterday! And that is a true story. Given what you just said, I just had to remark on that . Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-01-2007, 06:18 PM | #178 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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That is also a true story.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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09-02-2007, 06:25 AM | #179 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
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What Kingdom was that? The Holy Roman Empire? Actually, there's a reason it was given that name- the same reason that Byzantium called itself the Second Rome, Moscow called itself the Third Rome, and the heads of Russia and Germany were called Czar and Kaiser. For fifteen hundred years Europe looked back on the Roman Empire as a lost time of unity, peace and prosperity, compared with the turmoil and strife that followed (just as the Chinese lok back on the Tang, the Indians look back to Ashoka and the Arabs look back to the Caliphate.) And for the most part, they were right. After the establishment of the Empire, even under the worst of the Julio-Claudians - Tiberius, Caligula, and Nero- the Empire itself was pretty well run by the bureaucracy. The grain ships arrived on time, the roads and aqueducts were extended, the Legions guarded the borders and suppressed piracy and banditry, trade and business expanded. " And what have they ever given us in return?! Xerxes: The aqueduct? Reg: What? Xerxes: The aqueduct. Reg: Oh. Yeah, yeah. They did give us that. Uh, that's true. Yeah. Commando 3: And sanitation. Loretta: Oh, yeah, the sanitation, Reg. Remember what the city used to be like. Reg: Yeah. All right. I'll grant you the aqueduct and the sanitation are two things that the Romans have done. Matthias: And the roads! Reg: Well, yeah. Obviously the roads. I mean, the roads go without saying, don't they? But apart from the sanitation, the aqueduct, and the roads-- Commando: Irrigation. Xerxes: Medicine. Commandos: Huh? Heh? Huh... Commando 2: Education. Commandos: Ohh... Reg: Yeah, yeah. All right. Fair enough. Commando 1: And the wine. Commandos: Oh, yes. Yeah... Francis: Yeah. Yeah, that's something we'd really miss, Reg, if the Romans left. Huh. Commando: Public baths. Loretta: And it's safe to walk in the streets at night now, Reg. Francis: Yeah, they certainly know how to keep order. Let's face it. They're the only ones who could in a place like this! Commandos: Hehh, heh. Heh heh heh heh heh heh heh. Reg: But apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us? Xerxes: Brought peace? Reg: Oh, pea-- Shut up!"
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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09-02-2007, 11:33 AM | #180 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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There are a lot of public misconceptions about the "Dark Ages," though. Quote:
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_civil_wars One useful basis for comparison between a major part of Christendom and the Roman Empire is that, if one does the math, Roman Emperors were significantly more likely than Byzantine Emperors to be forcibly deposed. Out of the 44 Roman emperors, 29 were forcibly deposed, and of the Byzantine 87 emperors, 47 were. Also, it is worth noting that the 44 Roman emperors had power for a period of about 300 years, while the Byzantines were in power for about a thousand. If the Romans had had as many emperors as the Byzantines but had kept going through them at the same rate, their empire would have lasted 600 years, not the Byzantine thousand. The source I'm getting these numbers from is somewhat incomplete, though, so that might adjust these numbers. My personal opinion is that in view of the visible trend, any such adjustment would not likely favor the Romans. http://www.allempires.com/article/in...roman_emperors Civil wars were very common in the Empire's history, and the Empire's territorial gains were all made by right of conquest. On the other hand, Christianity's territorial gains during the Medieval Ages largely (though not entirely) were made by evangelism. Roman unity and peace are myths, except during the Pax Romana. The era was full of civil wars, conquests of surrounding peoples and the assassinations of their emperors. But I agree with you that Rome made many, many major achievements. There was often a downside, such as the fact that the prosperity you mention was almost all the result of slave labor and the exploitation of conquered peoples, but there certainly were remarkable achievements made by Rome. Some were technological, as you've mentioned. There also was cultural sophistication. The Pax Romana was amazing, and I certainly respect the Five Good Emperors. Parts of Roman law have formed the basis for our own.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-02-2007 at 05:08 PM. |
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