marriage

[Rían]

you're welcome, katya m'dear!

Yes, I wanted to be married when I was little - and I've been married now for almost 20 years to a great guy! Not to say it's easy all the time - in fact, last night we had a big disagreement - but it's SOOOO worth it, and the good times FAR outweigh the bad It's a lot of work, but the results are WELL worth it! It's one of the best things I've ever done in my entire life But choose your husband carefully character is what's important!

People will disagree, no matter WHO they are - it's just a fact of life - what matters is HOW you conduct the disagreement. We try to always conduct disagreements very carefully and with great honor to the other person, realizing that many disagreements are often just simple misunderstandings from imperfect communication, and it's better to hold back angry words than to apologize for them later when the damage has been done.

I think being a "good wife" is an honorable goal, and I really resented Teresa Heinz Kerry's slurs against Laura Bush. How is it wrong to want something like a traditional marriage? What's wrong with you wanting a traditional family structure? Why would it be sexist?

It reminds me of people who object to the Christian concept of "submission" of the wife to the husband in marriage, when they really have no idea of what it means, or are even aware of the much HARDER command to the husband to love his wife like Christ loves the church. They'll say things like, "You shouldn't submit to your husband! You should think for yourself!" And to them I respond, "You tell me to think for myself, yet you tell me to do what YOU think is right?! How is that thinking for myself?! I've THOUGHT for myself, thank you, and I think the Christian concept of submission (as opposed to what some non-Christians think it is) is an excellent one. So please don't tell me what to do - I refuse to submit to your opinion."

Christian submission in marriage doesn't mean not thinking for yourself, nor does it mean brainless obedience. I should open a thread on that subject, it's an interesting one!

Anyway, I say good for you, katya! It's a beautiful and honorable thing, IMO, for a girl to desire marriage and being a good wife.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i would say the most admirable goal would be to follow what you would want, if 2.4 kids, house in the suburbs, man who works 9-5 a cat and a adog is what you want, then go for it girl, however if a high paying career, a house-husband, a nanny, 4 kids all in private schooling is what you want, then that is also good

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

It reminds me of people who object to the Christian concept of "submission" of the wife to the husband in marriage, when they really have no idea of what it means, or are even aware of the much HARDER command to the husband to love his wife like Christ loves the church...and I think the Christian concept of submission (as opposed to what non-Christians think it is) is an excellent one.

This sounds like a judgement on what people think. Are you able to read their minds and KNOW that they don't know what it means?

Anyway, I say good for you, katya! It's a beautiful and honorable thing, IMO, for a girl to desire marriage and being a good wife.

What makes a good wife? I would think that a GODD marriage is more important and for that it takes give and take - not damn submission by either person. It takes respect - and if one person is considered above the other - then that is hardly the recipe for mutual respect.

I am completely against the "submission" of the wife and think it's an archaic concept, but some people who cling to the bible seem to still support it.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

This sounds like a judgement on what people think. Are you able to read their minds and KNOW that they don't know what it means?

You're quite wrong, JD. I'm not talking about what I think people think. I'm talking about what I hear people SAY - their OWN words out of their OWN mouth. Of course I'm not judging by what I think people think - why would I do that? I'm going on what people have SAID. I go by what people SAY, not by trying to read their minds For example ...

It takes respect - and if one person is considered above the other - then that is hardly the recipe for mutual respect.

Just to get things perfectly clear, are you claiming that Biblical submission involves considering one person "above the other", or lack of "mutual respect"? If so, please back up your views by pointing to Bible verses to support this. If you can't, then I think I can safely claim that you do not understand the Biblical concept of submission.

Many people that I've discussed this issue with have SAID things about Biblical submission that they can't back up with Bible verses, and when that happens, it is clear that they don't understand Biblical submission. Unless they want to claim that they know what GOD is thinking but just forgot to write down!

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

You're quite wrong, JD. I'm not talking about what I think people think. I'm talking about what I hear people SAY - their OWN words out of their OWN mouth. Of course I'm not judging by what I think people think - why would I do that? I'm going on what people have SAID. I go by what people SAY, not by trying to read their minds

So you've talked to ALL non-Christians as indicated in this statement you made - "(as opposed to what non-Christians think it is)"

Just to get things perfectly clear, are you claiming that Biblical submission involves considering one person "above the other", or lack of "mutual respect"? If so, please back up your views by pointing to Bible verses to support this. If you can't, then I think I can safely claim that you do not understand the Biblical concept of submission.

Is that so? I coudl - but I don't think I will bother quoting bibilical verses. I can bring up bibilcial verses that support slavery - but what does it matter?

Many people that I've discussed this issue with have SAID things about Biblical submission that they can't back up with Bible verses, and when that happens, it is clear that they don't understand Biblical submission. Unless they want to claim that they know what GOD is thinking but just forgot to write down!

Maybe you just interpret the bible wrong and your view is the one that is wrong. But you seem to be having this "non-Christians view this and view that" mentality. Oh well I suppose. I guess you know all about non-christians. But it seems by your point of view that non-Christian don't understand ANYTHING about Christians.

I'm going to be VER blunt here - you seem to have a VERY judgemental attitude toward people who are NOT Christian - whether you think so or not.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

So you've talked to ALL non-Christians as indicated in this statement you made - "(as opposed to what non-Christians think it is)"

Where does she say that? Maybe not ALL who call themselves Christians buy into the notion of Biblical Christian submission - as it regards marriage anyway. But there is still a belief/practice on this which can properly be called an 'Orthodox Christian view' (and by Orthodox here I mean 'classic' or 'generally, historically accepted' in Christianity - not 'Eastern Orthodox').

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Where does she say that? Maybe not ALL who call themselves Christians buy into the notion of Biblical Christian submission - as it regards marriage anyway. But there is still a belief/practice on this which can properly be called an 'Orthodox Christian view' (and by Orthodox here I mean 'classic' or 'generally, historically accepted' in Christianity - not 'Eastern Orthodox').

Right here -

and I think the Christian concept of submission (as opposed to what non-Christians think it is) is an excellent one.

How does she knwo what all non-Christians think it is - and who is to say she is right in her view. And Christian is Christian - whether you are Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist or Greek Orthodox. Christian just means you believe in Christ as the savior. So no - not even all christians belief int he submission thing - anymore than Christians believing in the right to own slaves (and that's in the bible too).

[Valandil]

Again - she did not say 'ALL' - but in general, it could be a safe statement to make that in general, non-Christians don't understand the concept of Christian submission.

Just as you don't understand what the Bible says about slavery.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Again - she did not say 'ALL' - but in general, it could be a safe statement to make that in general, non-Christians don't understand the concept of Christian submission.

Yes - and I think that many people who preach the bible all the time are blinded by their belief and don't look beyond it.

Just as you don't understand what the Bible says about slavery.

So now you are talling ME what I udnerstand and DON'T UNDERSTAND? Is that putting words in my mouth and assuming things? You don't even know my background.

BTW - how can you say it's a safe statement about what non-Christians thinking or not thinking? Has their been some poll taken that I don't know about? And she also didn't use the phrase - "in general".

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Yes - and I think that many people who preach the bible all the time are blinded by their belief and don't look beyond it.

Oh - you do? And is that why you've been following Rian around and attacking everything she says?

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

So now you are talling ME what I udnerstand and DON'T UNDERSTAND? Is that putting words in my mouth and assuming things? You don't even know my background.

Hardly! But you should back up what you claim or drop it real quick! Put your own words in your own mouth, but be ready to back it up. First, start a separate thread, since it's OT in here - then give the scriptures that say this. I'd LOVE to talk Bible with you.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Oh - you do? And is that why you've been following Rian around and attacking everything she says?

I haven't been following her around -- I'm debating her - but obviously YOU are assuming things. Just because I question what she says - doesn't mean I'm attacking her.

Hardly! But you should back up what you claim or drop it real quick! Put your own words in your own mouth, but be ready to back it up. First, start a separate thread, since it's OT in here - then give the scriptures that say this. I'd LOVE to talk Bible with you.

Why? Other people don't have to back up what they say. And I could argue the bible with you - again you no nothing about my education or anything. Again you are assuming things.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

I haven't been following her around -- I'm debating her - but obviously YOU are assuming things. Just because I question what she says - doesn't mean I'm attacking her.


Why? Other people don't have to back up what they say. And I could argue the bible with you - again you no nothing about my education or anything. Again you are assuming things.

What exactly am I assuming? And you've mentioned your Catholic school background before, but that's a separate matter. You appear to be just dodging the issue you raised - and what, do you want me to just speak in generalities that get so vague that there's no way I'm assuming ANYTHING? I haven't put words in your mouth or claimed you said anything, now have I? If so, show exactly where, or stop making such ridiculous claims.

This whole approach of yours is getting lame.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Valandil

What exactly am I assuming? And you've mentioned your Catholic school background before, but that's a separate matter. You appear to be just dodging the issue you raised - and what, do you want me to just speak in generalities that get so vague that there's no way I'm assuming ANYTHING? I haven't put words in your mouth or claimed you said anything, now have I? If so, show exactly where, or stop making such ridiculous claims.

How is that a seperate matter? You think we didn't study the bible? Rian makes these statements as if they are fact - because they are her views. The issue of the wife being submssive to the man is an exact example of this. I can point out where the bible talks about owning slaves too - will you support slavery because it condones that?

And no - instead you try to tel me what I know or understand - "Just as you don't understand what the Bible says about slavery." As you pointed out - I went to Catolic School for 12 years. You might find this amazing - but we actually did study the bible there too.

This whole approach of yours is getting lame.

Whatr whole approach? Me asking Rian why she makes generalized statements about non-Christians all the time is getting lame? I personally think YOU have a problem here.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

How is that a seperate matter? You think we didn't study the bible? Rian makes these statements as if they are fact - because they are her views. The issue of the wife being submssive to the man is an exact example of this. I can point out where the bible talks about owning slaves too - will you support slavery because it condones that?

And no - instead you try to tel me what I know or understand - "Just as you don't understand what the Bible says about slavery." As you pointed out - I went to Catolic School for 12 years. You might find this amazing - but we actually did study the bible there too.

It's a separate matter because the simple fact that you went to Catholic school doesn't mean I have to just accept a statement you make about the Bible. I want scriptures, not diplomas.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Whatr whole approach? Me asking Rian why she makes generalized statements about non-Christians all the time is getting lame? I personally think YOU have a problem here.

Just when you were accusing me of putting words in your mouth and assuming things. I was doing no such thing at all.

Well - start your thread if you like. I'm off to bed now. Have to wake up for work in about 6.5... If you get something started, with quotes from scripture, I'll try to respond to it in the morning before I go.

Note now - I'm looking for something where the Bible validates slavery - not just acknowledges it. After all, here's what you said:

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

...I can bring up bibilcial verses that support slavery...

and

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

...anymore than Christians believing in the right to own slaves (and that's in the bible too).

G'night.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Valandil

It's a separate matter because the simple fact that you went to Catholic school doesn't mean I have to just accept a statement you make about the Bible. I want scriptures, not diplomas.

I wonder - WHICH bible should I use? The King James? The Greek? The Wya bible? I wonder.

Just when you were accusing me of putting words in your mouth and assuming things. I was doing no such thing at all.

Sorry - but you were saying what I know when you don't know - because you can't read my mind. Fair turn around is hell I know.

Well - start your thread if you like. I'm off to bed now. Have to wake up for work in about 6.5... If you get something started, with quotes from scripture, I'll try to respond to it in the morning before I go.

Note now - I'm looking for something where the Bible validates slavery - not just acknowledges it. After all, here's what you said:



and



G'night.

This has been discussed. The bible does condone slavery and I think that Entmoot has far too many religious discussions as it is (gay & lesbian, gay marriage, it seems as if this marriage thread is one now, creationism and there are others) - why should I start another one? :rolleyes

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

This has been discussed. The bible does condone slavery and I think that Entmoot has far too many religious discussions as it is (gay & lesbian, gay marriage, it seems as if this marriage thread is one now, creationism and there are others) - why should I start another one? :rolleyes

Copping out? I'm disappointed.

Good nii-ight!

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Copping out? I'm disappointed.

Good nii-ight!

Yeah right. You seem to be doing the same thing that people are pissed off at me about - repeatedly asking someone to answer a question. I will think about answering - but I don't see why I shoudl have to. The slavery issue has been brought up many times in the threads. It seems as if some religious people wish to ignore the passages condoning slavery. The only thing I can think of is that it's a sore spot that the bible would condone such a heinous act such as slavery.

Exodus 21:20-21 "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he [the slave] continue [to live] a day or two, he [the slave owner] shall not be punished: for he [the slave] is his money [property]."

So I guess it's okay if the slave lingers on for several days - just not good if the slave should die right away. I guess children from this passage of the bible we learn that it is far better to make a person suffer severe pain and die a lingering death than to kill them outright without suffering.

[Valandil]

Thanks for responding (though I fear I should split this off - not sure just which post to begin with). A good passage too, but it doesn't truly condone slavery. It takes as a given that slavery exists (as it did at that time in possibly all 'civilized' cultures of the world), and actually makes it more humane. In other cultures, there was NO punishment for someone who killed their slave.

Take this as the first step forward.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Thanks for responding (though I fear I should split this off - not sure just which post to begin with). A good passage too, but it doesn't truly condone slavery. It takes as a given that slavery exists (as it did at that time in possibly all 'civilized' cultures of the world), and actually makes it more humane. In other cultures, there was NO punishment for someone who killed their slave.

Why should you split this off? Are you we goning to have YET ANOTHER religious thread? My problem is with the submission of the wife passages. Are you going to keep my comments in regarding that? I don't think this warrants splitting this off.

As for that not condonging slavery - but just looks at the times they lived in - give me a break. That excuse is only used by people who need to defend the bible at all costs. It does NOT condemn slavery - if god is all powerful - why wouldn't he condemn such a heinous act? As for making it more humane - how is allowing someone to suffer for a day or two before dying more humane? As I said - it seems as if many people who cling to the bible so much are completely blinded by their beliefs and will defend it no matter what.

Take this as the first step forward.

First step forward for what?

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Why should you split this off? Are you we goning to have YET ANOTHER religious thread? My problem is with the submission of the wife passages. Are you going to keep my comments in regarding that? I don't think this warrants splitting this off.

As for that not condonging slavery - but just looks at the times they lived in - give me a break. That excuse is only used by people who need to defend the bible at all costs. It does NOT condemn slavery - if god is all powerful - why wouldn't he condemn such a heinous act? As for making it more humane - how is allowing someone to suffer for a day or two before dying more humane? As I said - it seems as if many people who cling to the bible so much are completely blinded by their beliefs and will defend it no matter what.

First step forward for what?

(I keep TRYING to go to bed! )

First of all, where do you get the part I underlined? That's presumptive.

Second, my translation doesn't say that the beaten slave lingers a day or two and then dies, it says:

"but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."

Which clearly indicates to me that the slave lives. Does your translation indicate otherwise? (granted - translating these old documents has been tricky) Mine is the NIV.

Not so sure that slavery used to be considered as heinous as it is in modern times. Life was rough all around in antiquity - and simply surviving, in any way, shape or form, was an achievement. And I still don't think the passage condones slavery - it simply begins to place limits upon it.