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#141 | |
Leaf-Crowned Lord Of Elvenpath
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Heaven by the looks of it. Hell by the feel of it.
Posts: 1,052
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#142 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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#143 | |
Princess of the Noldor (and Administrative Empress of the Lone Islands)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Imladris (and sometimes Norway)
Posts: 3,304
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Signature picture art - Bard the Bowman - by vigshane Avatar art - Footsteps of Spring (a young Luthien) - by Henning Janssen |
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#144 | ||||
Salt Miner
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
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As for “faded Elves,” recall Legolas running across the snow in the Redhorn pass, his feet leaving “little imprint in the snow.” Perhaps that was always a characteristic of Elves, and not a product of their “fading.” But the great draw of the Rings of Power was to prevent Elves, and the Noldorin smiths who followed Celebrimbor in particular, from suffering this effect in Middle-earth.
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Back on track: as for Elves and magic and barrow-blades: the Elves did not use “magic” per se: they used the power of Arda, and their own power, and it seemed to Men that it was magic, I believe. Although it is often erroneously attributed to Asimov or Niven, both of whom quoted it, Arthur C Clark first postulated that, “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” Fëanor was pretty clearly (to my mind) practicing what he would have called “technology,” and even Tolkien says that the Noldor represent the study of technology and science.* That the Elves did not entirely comprehend the ignorance of Men in this regard is reflected in Galadriel’s comment to Sam and Frodo in the chapter “The Mirror of Galadriel”: Quote:
An interesting sideline: Bombadil was certainly around during the wars between the North Kingdom and Angmar: he and Goldberry had known the people buried in the mound and were apparently fond of them; Aragorn knew him (why did he not speak up immediately when he heard Bombadil bidding farewell to Frodo and his companions?); and so I think it is likely that he had helped the Dúnedain from time to time over the long years of the Third Age. Yet the Witch-king seems never to have been aware of “old Bombadil,” and in Tolkien’s notes cited in Reader's Companion, the pursuing Nazgûl erroneously attribute the destruction of the barrow-wight to the Ring-bearer, over-estimating his power. And a final note before I have to leave this most interesting topic and return to the salt mines: if, as we all seem to agree, the Witch-king had been struck by weapons before, and all the Nazgûl feared fire, can we not also agree that the Nazgûl had suffered various physical injuries during their approximately 4,600 years of existence as wraiths? And what was done about this: I mean, were they “healed,” brought back to “health” and made “hale” again? Tolkien says (Letter 212) that, Quote:
-|-* “…the Noldor ... were always vulnerable on the side of ‘science and technology,’ as we should call it”, Unfinished Tales, “The History of Galadriel and Celeborn”, footnote 8. This is in turn a quotation from Letter 153, where it continues, “…they wanted to have the knowledge that Sauron genuinely had, and those of Eregion refused the warnings of Gil-galad and Elrond. The particular ‘desire’ of the Eregion Elves – an ‘allegory’ if you like of a love of machinery, and technical devices – is also symbolized by their special friendship with the Dwarves of Moria.” |
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#145 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
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Salt mines???
(well, if you could make a delivery to The Pony, i'd be reet thankful..not but that the beer isnt great these days..but we need it for the salted peanuts....) .......... Well, in a rather shorter manner, Alcuin rather summed up my point. What "Magic" for lack of a better word, and to refer to what The hobbits call it, or the Rohirrim might say as Dwimmor-crafty ... the Numenoreans, be them Black Numenoreans or of the Faithful, or those that as previously speculated who become wraiths or the WK himself ... whatever "magic", far sight, senses, perceptions and ability to "sorcery" whether in Runes, "technology" etc etc ... they had.. they inherited from the Elven blood in the Numenorean line - It is and always has therefore, been Elvish in derivation. On a side note, also there can be no doubt to my mind that the Nazgul, and wraiths in general were susceptible to damage, injury and certainly the physical form their undead sinews happen to inhabit - two things - at the Flight to the ford of Bruinen - firstly we are told by Gandalf that they - or at least we think 8 of them had their physical bodies destroyed in the flood - and that shapeless they had as best they could get back to their master... secondly - "There are few even in Rivendell that can openly ride against the Nine... Glorfindel is one of those" .... "they saw him (at the rise of the River at the fords) as he is on the Other side... as a lord of the firstborn..." I have no doubt that Glorfindel could cause serious damage to them - and not merely to their physical bodies. Finally - if a rider was to be de-mounted in Rohan - Gandalf: "Then let Rohan look to its Horses..." again, evidence were it needed that their Host physical form could be damaged. What is odd though is that whilst it is needed to sustain the armour and move the mace - when the WK enters the gate of Minas tirith and removes his Helmet - there is invisable his head, bar his crown. Therefore suggesting a symbiosis of physical host form, and wraith. P.s - when you deliver the salt... pop in to The Pony for a couple - The Ale is fantastic ![]() Last edited by Butterbeer : 11-23-2008 at 03:09 PM. |
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#146 | ||||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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![]() If the Morgul Vale was indeed "twisted" with the power of the Nine Rings, its magic would quickly fade, like Lorien has faded. These two places are so much alike in many ways... and both are unwholesome to humans. ![]() Anyway, all that would end with the Rings as would the nazgul and the human wraiths, wraithified by Morgul magic. They would finally go to Mandos. Yet there was something that remained, something making the Valley and the old city unsalvageable in the Fourth Age: and it might have been the Houseless. Likely they have become free from their bounding spells (like those that kept them bound to stone statues, dead bodies, maybe also possessed living bodies). But free Houseless were dangerous nonetheless. Quote:
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![]() You see, Tom was a real chatterbox: Goldberry must have been already sick of it. Maggot and the other hobbits were not that entertaining to chat with, because being so young they couldn't contribute much to the talk about Angmar wars. Witchy on the other hand... ![]() Yet, the new info in Reader's Companion suggests otherwise: it seems the WK had no idea about Tom. How indeed did the WK manage not only to spend a few days on Tom's territory, but also to weave some spells that awoke "all things of Evil' in Tom's forest and upon the Downs? And not even once did Tom make an appearance, or chant a counter-spell, so that the WK remained oblivious to Tom's very existence? Quote:
I take it they couldn't be gravely injured by mortals wielding ordinary weapons, but it doesn't mean they couldn't be injured by other things: heavy boulders rolling in the river, or a fall from a height. The main thing was fire. I believe it had something to do with the Holy Flame of Anor, Flame Imperishable and such concepts. On the more down-to-Earth note, the most feared creature for the nazgul was obviously Sauron, who was like a demon of fire, his very flesh capable to burn an Elf to cinders, and his Eye was likely burning naked souls in the Spirit World. And if Sauron (for obvious reasons) wouldn't kill one of his nazgul, he might very well have tortured them with fire, if he found them at fault. Wasn't he "conveying threats that filled even the Morgul-lord with dismay"? Wasn't the fear of Sauron's wrath almost the only driving force behind the nazgul's bold and desperate actions at the Ford? As for the Calaquendi Elves, like Glorfindel, who had access to the Spirit World, I don't even think they needed any special weapons, or any weapons at all to harm a nazgul. They could do it by magic, as nazgul's very existence was based on magic. Glorfindel's songs "were stronger songs" and the nazgul had no choice but to flee. |
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#147 | ||||
Salt Miner
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
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Fire could operate as fire in both worlds: burns are nasty, particularly painful, and slow to heal; besides that, it scars. If, as you suggest, Sauron tortured them with fire, they could have been particularly sensitive to it; moreover, it would seem that their experience of the “other side” was physically cold (eg, Frodo’s phenomenology of feeling cold both to himself and to others; the barrow-wight’s chant; and the conversation between Gorbag and Shagrat about being left “cold” on the “other side”). Perhaps fire was particularly nasty to the Ringwraiths in part because they were literally “cold”, and the normal intense heat of fire was to them even more intensely painful not only physically, but emotionally, psychologically, and even spiritually because of the its connections for them “back” to the normal world. |
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#148 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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Originally, Nazgul were shape-shifters, that could look like a hobbit (one looking like a hobbit came to Hobbiton – see in HOME 6 or 7), or shapeshift into monstrous birds- vultures. In the first drafts for the scene with Eowyn, she destroyed the Witch-King SIMPLY by cutting off the bird's head! (By the way, there the WK only lost his shape, much like he did at the Ford, and was present again at the Parley (instead of the Mouth) and then even talked with Frodo after the Ring was destroyed in the Cracks of Doom. But then, Tolkien decided that shape-shifting was mostly restricted to incarnate Maiar, not for Nazgul. After that, he changed the draft for the Eowyn scene exactly as it is now. But Tolkien didn't correct the "Fellowship” and the “Two Towers" accordingly. Not all of it, at least, some things he had missed. So Radagast's: "disguised as black riders", Gandalf's " the black robes are real robes that they wear to give shape to their nothingness when they have dealings with the living,” and all the issues with "losing shape" in Bruinen River are the reminders of the original conception. Yet when Tolkien later returned to the Bruinen ford episode in the “Hunt for the Ring” manuscripts (RC), he made it perfectly clear that none of the nazgul had lost his shape: they lost only their cloaks and boots (not a big issue), and the Witch-King had no difficulty riding his horse unclothed all the way to Mordor. The worst bug connected with the former shape-shifting concept still remains in TT (the White Rider): Quote:
“Behold the new shape in which I have been clad” ![]() ![]() ![]() Last edited by Gordis : 12-01-2008 at 03:35 PM. |
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#149 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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Excellent post, Gordis, really informative. Thanks.
I'm kind of glad he didn't go back and change those bits. They are the parts in which the reader first encounters them, and there's something a bit more creepy about the "shape" ambiguity stuff than the "pure spirit creature of fear" that attacks Minas Tirith. |
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#150 |
Salt Miner
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
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#151 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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#152 |
Leaf-Crowned Lord Of Elvenpath
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Heaven by the looks of it. Hell by the feel of it.
Posts: 1,052
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In order to return to the topic about the blades: Come to think of it, there could have been a conspiracy of Wraiths: the "first" Nazgul destroyed, and then Sauron would have given (forced?) their Rings to other men? So all in all, in the Pelennor Fields we woulda had His Wraithy Highness Withcking the 3rd or so...
![]() Just kidding of course. ![]() Good points, everyone. Of Tom: I think he (")knew(") the hobbits would come in 3018, and could not reveal his safe haven/existence/dwelling to evil before that. And BB- may I ask why are you writing so... difficultly? I mean, it's difficult to read, cause it feels like the thoughts on the text are not finished, and are suddenly just brought to an abrupt halt. I don't know if others find this difficult, but I do... ![]() ![]()
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#153 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: On the Bay of Belfalas
Posts: 1,125
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Well, both Elrond and Gandalf seemed to know him quite well.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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#154 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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know whom?
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#155 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: On the Bay of Belfalas
Posts: 1,125
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__________________
"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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#156 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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This means that for an Age and a half, out of the Nine, not a single one had been slain - which is a marvel in itself. Hardly any random group of, say, Elves could have shown such excellent survival rate. So either the nazgul were indeed very hard to kill and could recover from almost any wound, or they were extremely cautious - or (most likely) both. Quote:
And of course there is the question of the absence of the Nine at Orodruin. None intervened when their Lord and Master was being hacked to pieces by Gil-Galad, Elendil and Isildur. Were they perhaps sitting nearby, safe in their invisibility, placing bets? ![]() ![]() Last edited by Gordis : 12-15-2008 at 07:27 AM. |
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#157 |
Salt Miner
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
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I’ve thought about that. I think that Sauron was “making a break for it” – he was headed to Orodruin, perhaps to induce an eruption from the volcano that he hoped to use to destroy his enemies. Whatever his purposes, he was almost certainly headed to the Sammath Naur.
There are several armies around Barad-dûr at this point: Gil-galad and his Elves, Thranduil son of Oropher and his Elves, the Númenóreans, and the Dwarves. (And of course, the Eagles, who always appear the end of every battle.) In addition, there may have been other Men in alliance with the Dúnedain: the Northmen and the Men of Rhovanion, ancestors of the Beornings, the Rohirrim, and the Men of Dale. I think that the only explanation is that Sauron left Barad-dûr not alone, but with a personal guard. Where were the Nazgûl? Some of them could have been set to other tasks: leading forces to break the siege, trying to raise troops in the East and South, rallying and leading the Black Númenóreans (a task for the Witch-king and the other two Númenórean Ringwraiths), etc. But at least some of them must have been in the personal guard, I think. Now Sauron was very powerful, and Tolkien tells us in Letters that he should be thought of as “very terrible.” He had been re-embodied for at most 138 years, the period between the ruin of Númenor when his body was destroyed and the battle on Orodruin. He should have been able to fight quite effectively. His bodyguard, however, faced the best of the Dúnedain and the Eldar. His fortress must have been closely invested (i.e., the Last Alliance must have laid it siege very close to the fortress, trying to undermine it, or go through or over its walls). This probably means that there was yet another part of the force of the Last Alliance facing the outside, away from Barad-dûr, to prevent any attempts to lift the siege. Once Sauron broke out of the fortress, he had to move about 25 miles in a direct line to Sammath Naur. RotK tells us that the path up the side of the mountain was a switchback path; of course, Sauron was in a bit of a hurry, and might have neglected to follow any switchback path. That would have made it somewhat harder for his guard to follow him; but whether they could follow or not, Sauron’s personal guard must be first peeled away in order to get to him: that’s the purpose of having a personal guard. The implication is, I think, that by the time the battle had made its way onto the slopes of the volcano, only Sauron was left from his side; and on the other side, there were Gil-galad, Elrond, C*rdan, Elendil, and Isildur. The rest – Sauron’s personal guard and all the other people fighting them – were left behind. Whether the guard was isolated, destroyed, or outrun by Sauron is probably not important. Nazgûl are pretty tough critters, but Aragorn says that their primary power is fear, and no doubt, they were all in possession of their own Rings. Now, the power of fear is pretty tremendous; but fear needs something to feed upon, and an army of Faithful Dúnedain and Eldar, reinforced by allies at a distance, are not likely to offer much for fear to feed upon: the Eldar were not afraid of the Nazgûl, and the Dúnedain, bucked up by the Elven allies and fired up for victory, were unlikely to hold back, either. (Aragorn was not afraid of them, and apparently neither was Eärnur, whose horse bolted, but not his spirit. The text indicates that Boromir I, Steward of Minas Tirith and ancestor of Boromir in LotR, was not afraid of them either, and Faramir collapsed only because of Black Breath in connection with physical and emotional exhaustion in combination with an arrow wound.) Any Nazgûl in Sauron’s personal guard would have been cut down or (once Sauron was vanquished) forced to try to escape literally unseen. Last edited by Alcuin : 12-15-2008 at 10:52 PM. |
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#158 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
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Rumours from Khazad Dum, tell of many cunning works of the Dwarves sent as presents to the Lord of the Eagles. Sadly these alarm clocks, never caught on with the Eagles, ..nor the wonderfully silky Diaries sent by the Elves. As to the Memo pads sent by the Dunedain... |
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#159 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 987
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I would imagine that just as it often took dozens of Orcs to take out the best human warriors, it may have taken a good number of Elves and Men to keep the Nazgul occupied while Elendil, Gil-Galad, and Co. chased Sauron up the mountainside.
When he was thrown down, how do you suppose the Nazgul felt, lost or free?
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#160 | |
Leaf-Crowned Lord Of Elvenpath
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Heaven by the looks of it. Hell by the feel of it.
Posts: 1,052
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Sorry that I always jump into conclusions, but I do believe that they felt rather lost 1 and vengeful 2, not to mention fatigued3.(?) ![]() ![]() ![]()
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