11-11-2004, 02:44 PM | #141 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
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As you can see, I was just editing my previous post to include a comment to that effect.
In our county, the vote on measure 36 was 2/3rds No. The rest of the state voted 2/3rds Yes, and they won. But of course, the gay people live mostly in our city. They are our neighbors. We know them personally. That would tend to make a difference. |
11-11-2004, 05:03 PM | #142 | |
Elf Lord
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Interesting.
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11-11-2004, 05:35 PM | #143 | |
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Democrats basically voted on "anyone but Bush" mantra - and not for Kerry or his policies. You can't win an election like that.
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11-11-2004, 05:45 PM | #144 |
Elf Lord
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No, no. I know the economy is on the upswing. I should have said "economy" instead of "bad economy." Sorry about that.
I just find it interesting that these "moral" issues (which are based off one specific type of morality) are more important to so many people. Even if one does support the war, I think it should be a higher concern than whether or not two men want to get married. In one, lives are being lost. In the other, it's only a problem for most people because of religious ideals (and yes, JD, I know you aren't religous. This is why I said most ). Whether or not someone voted for Bush or Kerry on the war issue, I think that should be more important than the gay marriage issue. I feel the same way about the economy...because even though it's steadily getting better, it does not mean that it will stay that way. Whether or not one supports Bush or Kerry on these issues, I think they should weigh more heavily in the minds of US citizens than moral issues (that are subject to more relavitism). I agree that the Democratic party was relying to heavily on "anyone but Bush." My mother tends to lean Democrat, but disliked both Kerry and Edwards immensely, so voted for Bush. My father is a Republican, but would have voted Dean had he gotten the Democratic candidacy.
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11-11-2004, 05:46 PM | #145 |
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Deflection. She said war is immoral and you said people support it. The point isn't whether people support it. The point is that it's immoral. If she starts to argue about how many people support it, the whole point is lost. In my opinion, Christians who oppose war ARE adhering to the teachings of Jesus. And they will hold on to that belief even if every other person in the world disagrees. So your deflection will not work on her. But good luck.
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11-11-2004, 05:48 PM | #146 |
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Oops, she beat me to it. But I think I was right. As a Christian, she takes the edict "love thy enemies" to heart. Peace, Starr! You rock!
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11-11-2004, 05:59 PM | #147 | |
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[edit] Elfhelm - no where in her initial post I responded to did she say anything about the immorality of the war - nor in her clarification to me did she say anything about the immorality. YOu were the one that brought up immorality. So I wonder - who is trying to deflect the debate, while I was merely responding to what she ACTUALLY said.
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11-11-2004, 06:15 PM | #148 |
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The thing I don't get about this 'moral issues' question...
Why do people define it so narrowly? Surely almost every decision you make about voting is based on a moral choice. Whether a war is right or wrong, for example, is about the biggest moral issue there is. Economic policy is all about the kind of society you would prefer to see, and the way you believe the poor can be best helped: that's a moral issue. Scientific research is a moral issue; so is education. It's not all about gay marriage. I know that if someone asked me what my priority in voting is, I'd say it was 'moral issues', because to me that's inseparable from the decision I'm making. Isn't it possible that some of the 22% who chiefly voted on 'moral issues' were thinking the same way? (NB: I'm not saying every issue is a moral issue - constitutional questions don't tend to be, for instance. But I think we should widen the scope a bit.)
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11-11-2004, 06:20 PM | #149 | |
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11-11-2004, 06:22 PM | #150 | |
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11-11-2004, 06:29 PM | #151 | ||
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But I do agree with you. Anyway - what is moral to one person is not moral to another.
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11-11-2004, 06:34 PM | #152 |
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eh? Rian equated "harmful" to morality. Starr asked wasn't war more harmful. I assumed she was maintaining the equation. Maybe I was wrong.
But I bet she does think war is immoral. There are many Christians who think so. The day Bush invaded Iraq, the Quakers said it was wrong and so did the Pope. There are also many non-Christians, as I mentioned the Baha'i, the Unitarians, and others, who are pacifistic by definition. |
11-11-2004, 06:40 PM | #153 | |
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Or would anyone like to disagree? Anyone think it's possible to keep morality out of voting decisions?
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11-11-2004, 06:40 PM | #154 | |
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11-11-2004, 06:42 PM | #155 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Also - the bible does NOT condemn all wars. You can get anything you want out of the bible - to justify anything. If I want to say why the war was moral - I can find passages to support my argument. The bible means nothing in my eyes and should NOT be used to determine US foreign policy. I find it ironic that now you are trying to use the bible to condemn the war in iraq - after giving your diatribes about the religious right supposedly taking over the country with their religious beleifs. But hey - I guess people use whatever they got to justify their points - even if they resort to completely contradiicting their points of view.
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11-11-2004, 06:50 PM | #156 |
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The Bible does have guidelines for war...which the war in Iraq does not fall into. Saying the war in Iraq is biblically justified is is like saying the Qu'ran justified the 9/11 attacks. They're both fallacious.
Note: I'm not saying YOU'RE saying that, JD. Just clarifying.
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11-11-2004, 06:54 PM | #157 | |
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[edit]We are not attempting to take over iraq - anymore than the war against Meloshivic was to take over Bosnia and Serbia. So was that war jusified - remember now - Meloshivic never attacked anyone outside his country. It was a preemptive attack because the surrounding European countries were afraid that the civil war would spill over into their countries.
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11-11-2004, 07:04 PM | #158 | |
Elf Lord
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Generally, non-military personnel (such as women and children) are to be spared (Deuteronomy 20:14). While the women and children of the Old Testament era probably didn't appreciate their status as spoils of war, they likely found it preferable to death. Deuteronomy 20:19-20 tells us that there should be no unnecessary destruction of the environment during times of war. The Bible allows for those who do not wish to fight to choose not to do so (Deuteronomy 20:5-8). Today we might refer to such people as "conscientious objectors." The Bible teaches that representatives of the Lord should be available for the armed services (Deuteronomy 20:2). Today we know these individuals as "chaplains". I believe there is scripture in the New Testament, but I am far from an expert on the Bible, and am still trying to find what I remember from youth group studies.
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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell Last edited by Starr Polish : 11-11-2004 at 07:19 PM. |
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11-11-2004, 07:14 PM | #159 | |||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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So - so far there is nothing that the US has done which is against the Bible here. [edit]I should add to that based on the cease fire agreement of the first gulf war - the war was never ended and we didn't have to give anyone notice or time. Hussein did not adhere to the resolutions which was a requirement to officially end the Guld War.
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11-11-2004, 07:15 PM | #160 |
Elf Lord
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I originally had this as an edit in my message, but I'm afraid it will get lost, so:
I would also like to note that I am a United Methodist. The Social Principles of the United Methodist Church states: "We believe war is incompatible with the teachings and example of Christ. We therefore reject war as an instrument of national foreign policy and insist that the first moral duty of all nations is to resolve by peaceful means every dispute that arises between or among them." The scripture I have shown was not the best example I could have given. There are no straighforward "red letters" (meaning words Jesus himself spoke) pertaining to the specifics of war. He did, however, preach peace, understanding, and forgiveness, however. (And I will be the first to admit these are all things I need to work on). I am not saying what Hussein did was justified, and I am glad he is gone. Even though I think that trying to tie Iraq to 9/11 was a bit...off, it is a good thing that we have gotten rid of Hussein (this is something I am CONSTANTLY reminding Democrats on my campus of).
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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell Last edited by Starr Polish : 11-11-2004 at 07:18 PM. |
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