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#121 |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
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Yay for space travel.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
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#122 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
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I know I'll get a lot of criticism for this, but I don't think that budget is enough for what NASA is being asked to do. For all the past successful missions to the moon, there were many failures. Each failure meant money gone, even though NASA learned from their mistakes.
Now NASA is being asked to do something no one has done before, to build a manned station on the moon. I know the budget he proposed seems high, but think about how much just one shuttle costs to build, $1.7 billion. Maintenance is far more. NASA had done a fairly good job with the funds it has, even with the Columbia accident. When NASA postpones a flight because of bad weather or such, it costs $750,000 in overtime pay and fuel. The Bush agenda has as its guiding principle "that government should be market-based." I find this unrealistic, at best. There's not always profit to be made in scientific discoveries. And if there isn't, does that mean it is valueless? |
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#123 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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NASA was also asked during the manned moon missions to do something that was never attempted before - and that was land on the moon. It's about time we attempted to colonize the moon - or figure out how to do it and start preparing for it. Quote:
At some point space flight will be as common as going to the other side of the world. But we won't get there without the efforts and current expenses to make it happen. Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 01-15-2004 at 07:32 PM. |
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#124 | ||||
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
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#125 | ||
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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#126 | |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
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#127 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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There is more to it than just lowest bidder though - you do have to prove you can handle the job before you can be considered as one of the lowest bidders. So - yes - I would work on the moon. It's no different than working on the Space Station - and in some respects even better because there we have the Russian's technology to worry about, which caused a lot of problems.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 01-15-2004 at 11:58 PM. |
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#128 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
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The search for knowledge is important. I think the biggest reason we need a space program is we are going to need a new planet in the future considering the rate we use resources.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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#129 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
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http://www.tnr.com/easterbrook.mhtml?pid=1166 I'm a big supporter of manned space travel (is it pc to say "manned"? ![]()
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 01-16-2004 at 09:36 AM. |
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#130 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
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Mixed feelings about Bush's plan:
I DO think we'll eventually send a 'manned' mission to Mars. I think the main reason will be just the doing. Otherwise I don't expect it to be a very fruitful undertaking. We may continue to venture further out into the solar system in centuries to come... again at great cost, and with probably little return beyond finding our for sure, first hand, just what things are like in various places. There may be ancillary benefits of course, as the space program has already produced... but I don't know if we'll have quite the explosive growth in these areas. I won't be surprised if the rate of creation of these benefits slows down considerably. I DON'T think a Moon Base or Colony is the optimum platform for assembling missions to Mars and beyond. I would think we could do anything in Earth orbit that we could do on the moon's surface - and that's a lot closer at hand. (translation: cheaper, faster and easier) I disagree with those who think that the future of mankind is in space. Our future is right here, baby - so we better take care of what we've been given. Even if a suitable habitat for humans was found (or made) off-earth, the apparent costs of transportation for each person, PLUS what is needed to keep them alive - would be just exhorbitant. MUCH more expensive than taking care of a wonderful planet that we're so blessed to have! I LOVE Star Trek (original recipe) - but keep in mind that warp drive and teleportation are still science fiction. Those kinds of 'technologies' may never be attained - and may in fact, be totally unattainable. In a Star Trek world, space travel is quite doable - even over the vast distances that exist between stars - but let's make sure we can separate what can really be done from what cannot - or at least, what might not. (not to dispense with dreaming - or forbid anyone from trying to make it happen - I'll just remain sceptical until we're a good deal closer) |
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#131 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
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EDIT: In case anyone was curious, the moon's acceleration due to gravity (or gravity on the moon as it's been called) is 1/6th that of the Earth... which is 9.81 m/s/s). Anything that has mass would exert a gravitational pull on another object, actually. ![]() Quote:
![]() Oh, and furthermore, I never trust anything that comes out of a politicians mouth during an election year. I don't care what party they come from. Last edited by Ruinel : 01-16-2004 at 11:32 AM. |
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#132 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mirkwood, well actually I live in North-west Scania, Sweden
Posts: 9,481
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We have the entire Solar System and the technology to explore it so why not get going.
The Moon first (on which we establish a base) from which orbit we construct huge ships with which we explore and colonize the rest of the System. |
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#133 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
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Plus, we gotta get each person enough air, water, food, warmth - opportunities for community and solitude, etc. And once they go, it's hard to change their minds. And if anything goes really, really wrong, it's VERY hard to get back. And imagine if you got 'there' and realized you forgot something very important?? ("I thought FOR SURE I packed all my Tolkien books!!!" ![]() ![]() |
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#134 |
Alasailon
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: college
Posts: 861
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I skipped a few pages in the middle so please stop me if this aspect has been covered, but the space program has had a profound impact on our daily life just for the fact that it's research is so rigorouosly carried out and very innovative.
I mean where would we be if the space program hadn't gotten us the Swedish tempurpedic mattress? I know, stupid example but the point is that the space program will always be part of the leading edge in research and developement which is why I think it is so vital.
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"and then this hobbit was walking, and then this elf jumped out of a bush and totally flipped out on him while wailing on his guitar." "Anglorfin was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of anger; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was great skill." |
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#135 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
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![]() I think you would not be allowed to bring your Tolkien books for lack of space and the heaviness of the books. If you could somehow get them on CD, then I think it would be fine. I'm sure that personal items would have a volume and mass limit. After all, all those more important resources you listed above (like water, food, shelter, etc) are more important than one's free time occupations. |
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#136 | ||
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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Quote:
I never suggested the moon should be used as some sort of rest stop on the way to other planets. thats silly. Once you are launched and in space theres no point in landing till you are where you need to be. It takes little fuel to go through the vacuum of space obviously. we should put equipment on the moon because the moon ITSELF is a valuable piece of our solar systems history to study. Due to the lack of any significant atmosphere, the moons surface has undergone very little change. Therefore, the information found underneath the regolith is extremely valuable for the studies of the meteoroid and particle fluxes in the interplanetary medium over billions of years. Going to the moon is BY FAR the cheapest and easiest way to do that. And further studies of the physics of the Moon will benefit in fields far beyond the lunar and planetary sciences themselves. Space exploration is not just about flashy shiny “non-boring” stuff. Space exploration is mostly about dirty anonymous work. We need to get away from the concept of well if we cant ooh and aah about it then we shouldn’t spend any money on it. Wed never get anywhere if everyone believed that. Quote:
And Im seeing some of the same old arguments I saw at the beginning of this thread (and that I hear all the time from the general public) that whats the point, its boring, its dumb, we have better things to do, we weren’t designed for space, we should be happy and content right here, we should resist our instinctual urge to explore beyond our boundries blah blah blah. Fortunately it’s a guarantee that we (as a species) WILL go beyond our birth home and cut the ambilical chord and ooze out into the cosmos. Its simply our nature. Its simply going to happen people. So what we need to do is THINK about HOW we want to do this. NOT fuss about politics and how ALL of NASAs budget should go to soup kitchens or tax breaks or something. If you manage to stop this current generation from exploring space then it will simply fall to the next one. Or the next after that. Its unstoppable. And if you really think that by then ALL our financial and social problems will be solved then I have a bridge to sell you. If anything else they will be worse. Perhaps much worse. This aint star trek. Space exploration can lead to the very things that DO give us unthought of solutions to old problems. I hate that we are unwilling to break out of our little birth shell simply because of money. And I don’t really want it to come down to competition or commercialism because both those things can corrupt the science involved and breed a corner cutting mentality which leads to disasters. We should be willing to pay some money to do this. Unfortunately I can predict that the democrats in congress will be just as partisan about this whole idea as others have been so far and they will attack it for political benefit. And frankly that’s a shame. Course if a democrat had suggested this then it would have been the republicans cutting it up for the very same reasons.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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#137 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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Quote:
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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#138 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
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#139 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Quote:
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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#140 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Quote:
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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