What constitutes sex for you? - Page 6

Spock · 01-11-2004, 10:16 AM

(Page 2 of 2)

A balding 36-year-old named Ron, who said he works in technology in Manhattan, stood against a wall with his wife, surveying the scene. He said they were looking for another woman to take home. "You just go with the flow," he said. "Most of the time you have a drink and look at the nice people and then go home." A naughty smile flickered across his face. "Sometimes you meet someone and they go home with you."

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Some older swingers find it surprising that young women seem so comfortable experimenting with multiple partners. Angelo Valez, a veteran of the New York swinging scene for the better part of a decade and the organizer of a Latin-theme swinging group called Salsa Swingers, said: "I've been getting more younger couples where the girl is 18 or 19 and the guy is 21 or 22, and I've had to turn people away for that reason. It's like, wow, I'm surprised that people that age would be into it."

In an era when young people are blogging about their most intimate secrets and videos of celebrities having sex circulate with some frequency, the threshold for exhibitionism seems to have been lowered, and the line between public and private further blurred. Anna, the 22-year-old graduate student, for example, said she had no anxiety about being filmed having sex at a One Leg Up party for HBO's reality show "Real Sex." Her main concern was lighting.

"I think I look better on `Real Sex' than Paris Hilton looks in that video, because I'm not green and zombie-ish," she said.

At her parties, Palagia makes introductions and acts as a kind of etiquette cop. No leering is allowed, she said, and men must ask permission before engaging with women. She said the goal of her parties was "to help the masses feel comfortable with their sexuality."

While New York has never lacked outlets of sexual exploration, the current crop of erotic parties organized by women began when Cake put on an evening at a Lower East Side bar called Fun in July 2000. The group started with 100 people on its mailing list and now has 30,000, while attendance at its parties, held at nightclubs, averages 800 to 1,000, Ms. Gallagher said.

In 2002, Palagia, who had been holding her own private events since 1999, started a Web site and gave her first party at a public gathering place; soon, Flirt NYC and Skin were formed. The four groups typically hold one or two events a month, and each group's parties have their own identity. Flirt, for example, is oriented toward bisexuals and straight women curious about bisexuality, while One Leg Up is mostly for heterosexuals. Only One Leg Up organizes true orgies; the other groups' parties serve as sexually charged meeting places for those interested in further exploration off premises. Spontaneous lap dances and lots of bare skin are common to all.

Perhaps not surprisingly, not all men who attend the events find the new paradigm particularly enticing, or even necessarily new. Rob Press, 36, a computer consultant who has attended several One Leg Up parties, said that in his experience, "women are the gatekeepers anyway" in sexual matters.

"If you're going to keep making them more empowered, then I become a commodity," he said. "It just makes it fashionable to hide behind political jargon, unless they're attracting guys with an emasculation fantasy."

At one very quantifiable level, the events are indeed contributing to the empowerment of at least a few women: those organizing them. Palagia, for example, charges $55 a couple in advance for her "takeouts" and $175 a couple for her private events. She does have overhead costs — she hires doormen, for example, and entertainers. (To enhance the glam-rock theme of the party at Carnaval, she hired two dwarfs to dress as Paul Stanley and Gene Simmons of the band Kiss.) But she said her profit margins are large enough to provide her a decent living.

Cake, which began as simply a series of parties, has morphed into an entertainment company; in addition to a book deal with Simon & Schuster for a "Cake Guide to Sexual Empowerment," it recently completed a pilot for Showtime for a possible series on sexual mores in New York. (In keeping with its equal opportunity pledge, television hasn't ignored male party organizers; VH1 recently shot part of a documentary at a swingers' hangout in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, run by a 36-year-old erotic-party host named Grego.)

Ms. Gallagher of Cake said the media deals were part of the sexual revolution she wants to encourage. "You can't be subversive for your whole entire existence and make the huge social impact we want to make," she said. "You have to be in it to win it."

Some worry that for all the talk of empowerment, certain conventional dangers of such a lifestyle are being overlooked, like the threat of sexually transmitted diseases. (Condoms are required at One Leg Up's intimate events.) Dr. Megan Fleming, a clinical psychologist and sex therapist at Beth Israel Medical Center in New York, said that there could be potential psychological perils as well. "What can be a very hot fantasy doesn't necessarily translate into `I'm going to enjoy this in real life,' " she said. "In a fantasy, you're in control of everything that happens. Reality is not like that."

She also cited long-term ramifications. "When sex becomes a sport, it can take away from the potential to enjoy it in a more intimate relationship," she said. "They're so overstimulated in this environment that they may not understand sexual intimacy in a more monogamous relationship."

Anna said her solution to that problem was to find a boyfriend who was just as enthusiastic about the scene as she was. Despite having had over 100 sexual partners, Anna said, she is disease free and has no plans to stop going to the parties anytime soon.

She confessed, though, to one lingering fear. "I just hope I don't turn 30 and suddenly decide I want to run for office," she said.

Snowdog · 01-12-2004, 03:40 PM

wow... sounds like the Summer of Love!

Hasty Ent · 01-12-2004, 04:15 PM

I've always believed that sex is whatever activity makes you climax.

Nerdanel · 01-12-2004, 05:07 PM

Oh - then I've had a lot of sex..

Sorry if I'm saying too much, things you don't want to hear..

Coney II · 01-12-2004, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hasty Ent
I've always believed that sex is whatever activity makes you climax.

Hell, these days I count anything that raises a smile......never mind me blood pressure

Ruinel · 01-13-2004, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sminty_Smeagol
I've come across an oil meant for oilburning called 'pussy'. It smelled pretty nice actually, but not much like the title....

lol! Really? Did they have one called 'dick'?

Ruinel · 01-13-2004, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Snowdog
wow... sounds like the Summer of Love!

Personally, I do not believe I would get the same enjoyment from having sex with someone I didn't know and like (a lot). But I'm not going to be judgemental on the 'swingers'.

Funny, if someone asked me if I wanted to go to a party held by the Salsa Swingers, I'd think it was a group that mixes Salsa dance and 40's swing dancing.

date: "do you want to go to a party? The Salsa Swingers are putting it on."

me: "oh, sounds like fun!

I'd love to go."

date: "

GREAT!!!" /*thinks he's got a live one*/

Baby-K · 01-14-2004, 06:44 AM

I reckon I'm with HE on this one - if you climax you've most likely just had sex....either with yourself or someone else.

In my case shoe shopping may also apply :shrug:

The Gaffer · 01-14-2004, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
lol! Really? Did they have one called 'dick'?

No need. Just open a packet of cheddar.

Baby-K · 01-14-2004, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gaffer
No need. Just open a packet of cheddar.

Hmm, charming

Snowdog · 01-14-2004, 11:03 AM

Quote:

No need. Just open a packet of cheddar.

Well, there is clorox, tuna, and in serious worst cases, cottage cheese.

Anyway, Hasty Ent has it right, though I have to wonder if the hastiness caused the entwives to leave???

The Gaffer · 01-14-2004, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Snowdog
Anyway, Hasty Ent has it right, though I have to wonder if the hastiness caused the entwives to leave???

LOL! At least he wouldn't have any problems getting wood.

Hasty Ent · 01-14-2004, 11:15 AM

no, it wasn't my hastiness...but you've made an excellent point... with age I find the experience has accelerated, possibly because there's the sense of time slipping away :P

Baby K! shoe shopping doesn't do it for me, but a really awesome Grand Cru Burgundy comes awful close...

Lastly, I realize my nick is misleading, and apologies to all, but I am female/

Snowdog · 01-14-2004, 12:30 PM

Hasty Entwife???

My apologies for that, but I'm sure there is no issues with lifestyle choices of ents

.

Ruinel · 01-14-2004, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gaffer
No need. Just open a packet of cheddar.

gasp!!!

*winces* That's really gross.

Baby-K · 01-15-2004, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hasty Ent
no, it wasn't my hastiness...but you've made an excellent point... with age I find the experience has accelerated, possibly because there's the sense of time slipping away :P

Baby K! shoe shopping doesn't do it for me, but a really awesome Grand Cru Burgundy comes awful close...

Lastly, I realize my nick is misleading, and apologies to all, but I am female/

LOL, well maybe when I visit you (was kinda TOLD I HAVE TO visit the states this morning.....I was told this morning....don't have to visit this morning.......well, I'm gonna drag Rob along to Mardis Gras next year, or at least try - road trip from Atlanta to New Orleans kinda thing.............and no short cuts, I wanna see the hillbillies

) we could combine the two - shoes & wine....a bit of a sweet combo ye know

But that will only be next year, since Mardis Gras is starting end of this month & I'm still gonna be in SA until April

Hey, I hear you may be visited by a frog juror this year? Kudos babe

Oh and re the sex, I just realised that orgasm / climax isn't a sure way to tell if you've had sex....at least not for a woman - should rather check for wet spots

Ruinel · 01-16-2004, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baby-K
...Oh and re the sex, I just realised that orgasm / climax isn't a sure way to tell if you've had sex....at least not for a woman - should rather check for wet spots

Here's another thought along those lines: what if the guy doesn't climax/orgasm? If he's still penetrated, doesn't that mean he's had sex?

Starr Polish · 01-16-2004, 02:06 AM

Pah. Despite my lack of actual sexual experience, I'm pretty sure "reaching climax" doesn't really constitute "sex", per se. Neither men nor women always climax during penetration, and climax can happen in other situations (ie, wet dreams..blah...)

Baby-K · 01-16-2004, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
Here's another thought along those lines: what if the guy doesn't climax/orgasm? If he's still penetrated, doesn't that mean he's had sex?

If the guy doesn't climax he's doing something wrong.....or he's using drugs

Erm - do you mean if he's done the penetrating, or if he's been penetrated?

In some cases, where the man has penetrated his partner, even without climax, yes it's sex. But if the penetration is non-consentual then it's not sex, it's rape.

Ruinel · 01-16-2004, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baby-K
If the guy doesn't climax he's doing something wrong.....or he's using drugs

Or he's terribly drunk.

Quote:

Erm - do you mean if he's done the penetrating, or if he's been penetrated?

I think either way here is sex, he's penetrated or he's doing the penetration. I actually was originally thinking of him doing the penetrating and then not getting off, so to speak. But now that you bring this up, I also think either one will do.

Quote:

In some cases, where the man has penetrated his partner, even without climax, yes it's sex. But if the penetration is non-consentual then it's not sex, it's rape.

I agree, on both points.

01-11-2004, 10:16 AM	#101
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	posted page 2 because you must be registered to read this (Page 2 of 2) A balding 36-year-old named Ron, who said he works in technology in Manhattan, stood against a wall with his wife, surveying the scene. He said they were looking for another woman to take home. "You just go with the flow," he said. "Most of the time you have a drink and look at the nice people and then go home." A naughty smile flickered across his face. "Sometimes you meet someone and they go home with you." Advertisement Some older swingers find it surprising that young women seem so comfortable experimenting with multiple partners. Angelo Valez, a veteran of the New York swinging scene for the better part of a decade and the organizer of a Latin-theme swinging group called Salsa Swingers, said: "I've been getting more younger couples where the girl is 18 or 19 and the guy is 21 or 22, and I've had to turn people away for that reason. It's like, wow, I'm surprised that people that age would be into it." In an era when young people are blogging about their most intimate secrets and videos of celebrities having sex circulate with some frequency, the threshold for exhibitionism seems to have been lowered, and the line between public and private further blurred. Anna, the 22-year-old graduate student, for example, said she had no anxiety about being filmed having sex at a One Leg Up party for HBO's reality show "Real Sex." Her main concern was lighting. "I think I look better on `Real Sex' than Paris Hilton looks in that video, because I'm not green and zombie-ish," she said. At her parties, Palagia makes introductions and acts as a kind of etiquette cop. No leering is allowed, she said, and men must ask permission before engaging with women. She said the goal of her parties was "to help the masses feel comfortable with their sexuality." While New York has never lacked outlets of sexual exploration, the current crop of erotic parties organized by women began when Cake put on an evening at a Lower East Side bar called Fun in July 2000. The group started with 100 people on its mailing list and now has 30,000, while attendance at its parties, held at nightclubs, averages 800 to 1,000, Ms. Gallagher said. In 2002, Palagia, who had been holding her own private events since 1999, started a Web site and gave her first party at a public gathering place; soon, Flirt NYC and Skin were formed. The four groups typically hold one or two events a month, and each group's parties have their own identity. Flirt, for example, is oriented toward bisexuals and straight women curious about bisexuality, while One Leg Up is mostly for heterosexuals. Only One Leg Up organizes true orgies; the other groups' parties serve as sexually charged meeting places for those interested in further exploration off premises. Spontaneous lap dances and lots of bare skin are common to all. Perhaps not surprisingly, not all men who attend the events find the new paradigm particularly enticing, or even necessarily new. Rob Press, 36, a computer consultant who has attended several One Leg Up parties, said that in his experience, "women are the gatekeepers anyway" in sexual matters. "If you're going to keep making them more empowered, then I become a commodity," he said. "It just makes it fashionable to hide behind political jargon, unless they're attracting guys with an emasculation fantasy." At one very quantifiable level, the events are indeed contributing to the empowerment of at least a few women: those organizing them. Palagia, for example, charges $55 a couple in advance for her "takeouts" and $175 a couple for her private events. She does have overhead costs — she hires doormen, for example, and entertainers. (To enhance the glam-rock theme of the party at Carnaval, she hired two dwarfs to dress as Paul Stanley and Gene Simmons of the band Kiss.) But she said her profit margins are large enough to provide her a decent living. Cake, which began as simply a series of parties, has morphed into an entertainment company; in addition to a book deal with Simon & Schuster for a "Cake Guide to Sexual Empowerment," it recently completed a pilot for Showtime for a possible series on sexual mores in New York. (In keeping with its equal opportunity pledge, television hasn't ignored male party organizers; VH1 recently shot part of a documentary at a swingers' hangout in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, run by a 36-year-old erotic-party host named Grego.) Ms. Gallagher of Cake said the media deals were part of the sexual revolution she wants to encourage. "You can't be subversive for your whole entire existence and make the huge social impact we want to make," she said. "You have to be in it to win it." Some worry that for all the talk of empowerment, certain conventional dangers of such a lifestyle are being overlooked, like the threat of sexually transmitted diseases. (Condoms are required at One Leg Up's intimate events.) Dr. Megan Fleming, a clinical psychologist and sex therapist at Beth Israel Medical Center in New York, said that there could be potential psychological perils as well. "What can be a very hot fantasy doesn't necessarily translate into `I'm going to enjoy this in real life,' " she said. "In a fantasy, you're in control of everything that happens. Reality is not like that." She also cited long-term ramifications. "When sex becomes a sport, it can take away from the potential to enjoy it in a more intimate relationship," she said. "They're so overstimulated in this environment that they may not understand sexual intimacy in a more monogamous relationship." Anna said her solution to that problem was to find a boyfriend who was just as enthusiastic about the scene as she was. Despite having had over 100 sexual partners, Anna said, she is disease free and has no plans to stop going to the parties anytime soon. She confessed, though, to one lingering fear. "I just hope I don't turn 30 and suddenly decide I want to run for office," she said. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

01-12-2004, 03:40 PM	#102
Snowdog Dúnedain Ranger of the North Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Ruins of Arnor Posts: 892	wow... sounds like the Summer of Love! __________________ "I am an outlaw, I was born an outlaw's son. The highway is my legacy, on the highway I will run."

01-12-2004, 05:07 PM	#104
Nerdanel Spammer of the Happy Thread Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 3,512	Oh - then I've had a lot of sex.. Sorry if I'm saying too much, things you don't want to hear.. __________________ "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. " - C. Sagan My (photography) website My Flickr page

01-14-2004, 12:30 PM	#114
Snowdog Dúnedain Ranger of the North Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Ruins of Arnor Posts: 892	Hasty Entwife??? My apologies for that, but I'm sure there is no issues with lifestyle choices of ents . __________________ "I am an outlaw, I was born an outlaw's son. The highway is my legacy, on the highway I will run."

01-16-2004, 02:06 AM	#118
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	Pah. Despite my lack of actual sexual experience, I'm pretty sure "reaching climax" doesn't really constitute "sex", per se. Neither men nor women always climax during penetration, and climax can happen in other situations (ie, wet dreams..blah...) __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

01-12-2004, 04:15 PM	#103
Hasty Ent Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 516	I've always believed that sex is whatever activity makes you climax.

01-14-2004, 06:44 AM	#108
Baby-K Corruptor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Jozi SA Posts: 1,885	I reckon I'm with HE on this one - if you climax you've most likely just had sex....either with yourself or someone else. In my case shoe shopping may also apply :shrug:

01-14-2004, 11:15 AM	#113
Hasty Ent Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 516	no, it wasn't my hastiness...but you've made an excellent point... with age I find the experience has accelerated, possibly because there's the sense of time slipping away :P Baby K! shoe shopping doesn't do it for me, but a really awesome Grand Cru Burgundy comes awful close... Lastly, I realize my nick is misleading, and apologies to all, but I am female/

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