06-13-2003, 02:24 AM | #101 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
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Quote:
If countries were just rocks we stand on - then why do people defend them so much? Why did Europe fight against germany during World War I and World War II? Why are the Palestinians and Israelis fighting over a piece of dirt (killing thousands of civilians in the process)? Why does South Korea protect itself against North Korea? Why were there celebrations at the fall of the Berlin Wall and the reunification of Germany? Why did Parisians cry as Germany marched through their city and why did they celebrate the liberation of France if countries are just rocks? People don't know what they have until it's lost.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 06-13-2003 at 02:27 AM. |
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06-13-2003, 02:55 AM | #102 |
Lord of the Pants
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Uh. Territorialism? Limited resources? Religion? Any of the aforementioned? Because at the end of the day we haven't really escaped our animalistic natures? The only reason you are American is because your mother just happened to drop an egg at the right time that was fertilised by your father. It's all so random. That is why I think nationalism is strange. It's basically anthropomorphizing a piece of land/cloth. I identify with culture more than nationalism. Besides, why would I want to exult New Zealand above all other countries? That's incredibly stupid. We're all human. We all came from the same stock.
Last edited by Sheeana : 06-13-2003 at 02:57 AM. |
06-13-2003, 02:58 AM | #103 | |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Quote:
We live a symbolic world. If you call a loin names, tell him his pride has a bunch of losers in it it does not matter. But if you physical attack him that's a different story. We get offended at ideas. We will kill/die for them. Symbolism.
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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06-13-2003, 03:18 AM | #104 | |
Corruptor
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Quote:
*pictures someone trying to tell AE's loin that he's got losers in him* *falls over laughing at thought of someone physically attacking AE's loin*
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06-13-2003, 03:23 AM | #105 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Quote:
If people didn't associate themselves with their countries then Europe would have absolutely no problem forming a European Union and disolving the borders. England would have become a full fledged member in all senses and adopted the EU Currency (which adoption was just rejected again). Quote:
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If someone invaded America I would fight to the death - because it's our way of life, our form of government, heritage, history, etc which would be taken away. I have come to realise that you really do live in the clouds and not in the real world. If I go to new Zealand - will I see you passing out flowers and singing "Kum Ba Ya"?
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 06-13-2003 at 03:25 AM. |
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06-13-2003, 03:32 AM | #106 |
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OH MY GAWD...
That is argubly my best typo yet.
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
06-13-2003, 03:35 AM | #107 | |
Corruptor
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Quote:
(more a Freudian slip than a typo IMO )
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06-13-2003, 03:37 AM | #108 |
Alasailon
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On a smaller scale, why do people like to clean their houses? Why do people get irritated when they are disturbed while sitting at their desk?
On a larger scale, why do we recycle? Why do we try to make more environmentaly safe products? The answer to all of these is because we love the space we have come to call our own and would try our best not to have it disturbed. the basic idea for nationalism is no different. Though it can be a dangerous thing, it doesn't have to be. The problem with that word is now everybody looks at it in such a negative manner because it does seem to come in waves that most often lead to conflict. The only problem that I have with nationalism on any level is that it can easily interfere with our abilitiy to identify ourselves with ALL HUMANKIND. When is the last time you've ever seen a bumper sticker that said "Proud to be a homo-sapien"? Sure, nationalism unites people, but it also inevitably sets up boundaries. I am not against it, I am just saying that it is too easy for people to isolate themselves because of it.
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"and then this hobbit was walking, and then this elf jumped out of a bush and totally flipped out on him while wailing on his guitar." "Anglorfin was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of anger; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was great skill." |
06-13-2003, 03:40 AM | #109 | |
Lord of the Pants
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Quote:
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06-13-2003, 03:42 AM | #110 |
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Anglorfin,
Well said.
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
06-13-2003, 03:51 AM | #111 | |
Alasailon
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: college
Posts: 861
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As long as people understand that there really shouldn't be any boundaries, then nationalism is ok. This is going to sound stupid but I'm going to quote the Olive Garden commercials. (Olive Garden is a chain Italian restaurant on the east coast).
Quote:
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"and then this hobbit was walking, and then this elf jumped out of a bush and totally flipped out on him while wailing on his guitar." "Anglorfin was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of anger; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was great skill." |
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06-13-2003, 03:57 AM | #112 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
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Quote:
I just find it very strange if you have no attachment to where you live or just view it as chance and therefore it has no meaning.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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06-13-2003, 04:06 AM | #113 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Quote:
Colin Powell is the son of immigrants from jamaica - he is just as much American as anyone else - as were his parents. It doesn't matter if a person is born here or not - it only matters how much they are willing to accept America. My ancestors accepted America when they came here - and fought to come up from poverty and fulfill their American Dream. Now - we have the hyphenination crap - African-Americans, Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans. They're not African, Italian or Irish - they're ancestors were - they're all Americans. That splits up the country into further divisions - divisions which shouldn't be there.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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06-13-2003, 04:08 AM | #114 |
Lord of the Pants
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If you read my posts you would see that while I do not subscribe to nationalism, I do subscribe to cultural identity. They are two different concepts. The whole point of nationalism is that you elevate your culture above everyone elses.
[taken over to email.] Last edited by Sheeana : 06-13-2003 at 04:19 AM. |
06-13-2003, 04:21 AM | #115 | |
Alasailon
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Quote:
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"and then this hobbit was walking, and then this elf jumped out of a bush and totally flipped out on him while wailing on his guitar." "Anglorfin was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of anger; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was great skill." |
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06-13-2003, 04:30 AM | #116 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Quote:
Why are we the United States? Because after the Revolution the states decided that instead of being seperate countries and loosely joined by basically a treaty known as the Articles of Confederation - they would join together to form a single country. Part of tht joining together stipulated that each state would retain it's identity and that the federal government would be limited and that the MAJORITY of the power would rest with the states. So - in the US - we just don't have pride in our country we have pride in our home state. The world practices nationalistic pride every 2 years - it's called the OLYMPICS. Countries try to outbid each other on hosting these events even - so they can show the world the best of their countries. England has rabbid soccer fans that show their pride - not the best side though in my opinion - but they obviously show pride in their home towns and country. Anyway who doesn't have nationalistic pride - must not root for their home country in the Olympics or other world sporting event. I can personally don't carebabout sports really - if the Devils left New Jersey - I wouldn't care who won the Stanley Cup - unless it was between an American and Canadian team. It's all about pride in where one lives.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 06-13-2003 at 04:35 AM. |
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06-13-2003, 04:37 AM | #117 |
Lord of the Pants
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Not necessarily. Culture is defined as: " the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon man's capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group." Nationalism is defined as: "a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups."
What I am trying to say (rather badly) is that biologically we are driven to develop these cultural ties to the people we grow up with, and interact with. However, that is as far as it goes with me. I acknowledge that I share an identity with the people who live here, but I do not place New Zealand above all other countries, nor do I romanticise the significance of being born into this particular geographical location. Is this clearer? |
06-13-2003, 04:48 AM | #118 | |
Corruptor
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Though the national pride I would think has more to do with what we have accomplished in the past 10 years than the location. But it has to be said that many black people ( speaking under correction here - it might not represent all black people, but this is something that I'd discussed with some of my friends & what they had said) feel intense pride in being from Africa - it is the home of their ancestors & the birthplace of man.
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06-13-2003, 05:17 AM | #119 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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One other thing about the US and the states. There were arguments during the Constitutional Convention where representatives didn't think that new states should have full representative rights. It was viewed that other than the 13 original states - they hadn't shed the blood which produced the country and they were afraid of the original states influence being watered down. As you can see - any new state admitted into the Union - is a full fledged member of the US. If Puerto Rico ever becomes a state - it will have full representation of all the other states.
Puerto Rico is an interesting example of nationalism. They are a territory of the US - every 5 or 10 years they vote on whether they want to be a state or not. They're are three options on the referendum- independence, statehood, or remain as a territory. The Puerto Ricans are a very proud people, they are US citizens, have US passports - but have their own Olympic teams, they do not have voting representation in Congress. If they voted for statehood they would have voting representation and have all the rights of all the other states. They have repeatedly voted to remain as a territory though - one of the reasons - they don't want to lose their olympic team or individual identity. Yet independence is a distant third in votes. Statehood is a close second to remaining a territory and only just missed approval in the last election. US Council For Puerto Rico Statehood The Future of Puerto Rico Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 06-13-2003 at 05:26 AM. |
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06-13-2003, 08:49 AM | #120 | |
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I don't root for any particular team. It's more of the style of play. HOWEVER, when I was teaching in Saudi Arabia I always rooted AGAINST the Saudi team. I was quite happy about the Germans blowing them out 8-0 I think that this is getting into what consistutes Nationalism vs Culture agrument. It seems that we ALL ( for the most part) agreeThat it does not make us innately better humans being from a particular counrty Now lets get back to serious issue like who is the better warrior Feanor or Fingolfin?
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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